Advanced Engine Theory and Design

Discussion in 'Stage II Tech' started by Alky V6, Jun 24, 2006.

  1. Alky V6

    Alky V6 Let's go racing, boyz!

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    I got a hair up my arse. I can just hear MAC saying 'Oh no, now what?'

    What if we start a thread dedicated to advanced engine theory and a place to throw design questions around? Anything goes as related to engines, Buick or otherwise. Cutting edge technology has a way to trickle down to older engine designs and those of us that are true tinkerers can usually figure out a way to adapt new ideas to the Buick engine. We can also discuss old, forgotten technology that could have a place if resurrected. A good example being water/alcohol injection. Since the Stage II forum is at the top of the heap, as far as the capabilities of the Buick V6 engine, I thought this would be the best forum to start a thread like this.

    A little bit of my background. I've always been a motorhead. Street raced a '68 Chevelle in my high school days (surprising a lot of others with a SBC 307) and always had an interest in making HP. Though, at most times in my life, I couldn't afford to fulfill my dreams. My job interests always strayed to the things that challenged me. Gas station attendant and mechanic's helper during the gas crunch years, worked at a data processing center for a large Bank working up to the computer room (amazing how the size and power of computers have changed), welding for a large ship yard, and always falling back to working on cars. I decided to make working on cars my career. In the late 70s, specialization was becoming a big thing with computer controls coming into the picture. For me, front end work or tranmission work. Transmissions were more interesting and challenging, so that is the way I went. I got a job with Rapid Transmission, one of the more respected shops in the San Diego area, and learned my trade. I worked there for 13 years, being a transmission rebuilder for 9-10 of those years and struck out on my own in '93. During those years at Rapid it was interesting watching lockup torque converters hit the scene and computer controls taking a firmer grip on every aspect of the automobile. Our shop currently performs general maintenance and repair along with tranmission repair. The jobs I perform at the shop are usually the more interesting. One which includes tinkering with the shop project. Of course, a Buick GN. Now, this intro is not intended as an advertisement. On the contrary, I just want you all to have an idea of who I am and not be asking yourselves, 'Who the hell is this Don Wang guy?'. By the way, that is a quote by a famous person in the Buick community.

    Anyone else that wants to post a brief history of themselves is more than welcome. This way everyone has an idea of where each other are coming from. I'm hoping this can be a thread where the heavy hitters can meet with new ideas or just wanting to confirm a thought. For the technically minded, this could be quite a treat.

    How I learned of the famous Buick turbocharged V6 is an interesting story. I was rebuilding a 200-4R at Rapid trans and happened to walk by the bay that the trans came out of. It just looked like another Regal to me. It was a light blue colored T-Type. If I recall, not a lot of chrome. I don't recall seeing any badging and told the installer to let me know when the trans was installed so I could personally test drive it and check the operation of the trans. He did and mentioned it had a turbo. That didn't impress me too much. I had driven other turbo production cars. I took one of the longest test drives I had ever taken. My reaction was, 'What the hell is this!!! Oh my G#d!'. I was hooked and in the back of my mind I knew that one day I would own one of those things. It is so intense to not know anything about the history and performance of a particular model car and learn it through the seat of your pants. It was such a sleeper.

    In the next post, I'll start a list of 'areas of interest' that we can choose a subject from or if others have a list, feel free. I'll do my best to get the ball rolling.
     
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  2. SPEEDSTAR

    SPEEDSTAR New Member

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    I for one am very glad that you have suggested this and look forward to participate in this group discussion. I hope that Bruce will aprove the new area of disccusion, from talking to him I gathered that he also is an forward thinking HP type guy,. There is alot of information to be drawn out of the type of guys that through many years of experience, can expound thier knowledge in thier own special way , and that have discovered areas of engine performance that could be great topics of interest. I know this would never happen , but I think it would be cool to design and build a stage 2 ultimate HP V6 , using this base and group as the agreed upon blueprint.. First consideration would be the strength of ea. component in context with the sum of the finished design, I believe that the most powerful stage 2 v6 engine ever built would require some sort of really strong , well designed engine girdle, which is where alot of the highest HP engines fail, because of lost of overall structural integrity.. So to me , assuring the ability of the engine to stay within certain limits and tolerances at peak torque and hp , and do this for a desired time would be important. And of course it would be a nitro burning alcohol car. Jeff weekley
     
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  3. Alky V6

    Alky V6 Let's go racing, boyz!

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    Preliminary list:

    The state of exhaust design.
    The state of turbo design.
    The state of intake design, OEM and aftermarket. (In my opinion is in its infancy)
    Coatings and their use and affects in different situations. Anti-friction, heat barriers, etc.
    Oiling systems. What are the best? Safest?
    Cam drives. Chain or gear? Most durable chains or gear drives.
    Crankshafts. stock, forging or billet and the limits of each.
    Fuel system variations and the future of electronic injection, mechanical or a combination of both.
    Efficient piston top design. Best breathing (helping the intake, exhaust functions of the head), anti-detonation, most combustion efficient, etc.
     
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  4. Alky V6

    Alky V6 Let's go racing, boyz!

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    I don't see why this can't be done. I have been working on such a blueprint and would be more than willing to share my ideas. I may not be able to afford putting the ultimate Stage II together, but maybe someone with more resources could use our ideas and make us proud.
     
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  5. Alky V6

    Alky V6 Let's go racing, boyz!

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    I know Bruce too. I have known him for years now and first met him personally at the WCN last year. Thanks for introducing yourself, Bruce. I have always known him to be a very fair minded, level headed fella and I don't see any reason why he would have a problem with this.
     
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  6. SPEEDSTAR

    SPEEDSTAR New Member

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    Don, What is the end goal of this meeting of the minds, is it just academic,is it to design a virtual engine that could be built using the best ideas arrived at here,...Are we talking a drag race engine, a turbo drag engine . I would like know in your thoughts on what direction you want it to follow, if any. I think if you"ll narrow its intent and purpose, it will have a better plot and read much easier, put a name to this book kinda so everyone will know what type of info is expected to play a part, I hope you get the ideal of what I am asking and take no offence, Jeff
     
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  7. Alky V6

    Alky V6 Let's go racing, boyz!

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    No offense taken. I'm thinking drag engine, top shelf technology. Nitrous, alcohol and/or nitro are not excluded. No limit on fuels or additives. Any technology that can be applied to the Buick V6.

    Even though I feel turbos are the ultimate for forced induction, we can explore blowers of all designs.

    F1 technology is always interesting too. Though most of it is too expensive to use on a Buick V6, it will keep things interesting and, who knows, maybe someone can find a tidbit of information they can use to design a new system for the Buick V6.

    The door is wide open. The Buick community is falling behind in the innovation department and I'd like to spark some fires in peoples minds so that maybe we will start seeing some new and interesting engine configurations. I'm tired of seeing Mustang this and Mustang that. Come on guys, lets get the Buick V6 back on the cover.
     
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  8. XxDarkSidexX

    XxDarkSidexX Banned

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    YOU ARE DE MAN Don! Good luck on those projects! See ya @ Vegas again this year.
     
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  9. SPEEDSTAR

    SPEEDSTAR New Member

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    Great , because with the new TA alum block, and the new Champion Iron block, we will be able to focus our ideas on superior systems ,no matter how exotic, that will mesh with the revived avialibility of the Buick configuration stage 2 V6. This will help to evolve design of bolt-ons and the block. There are already alot of new products now , but now we are challenged to think outside the box, and like you said dont limit this to designs that might be mass produced, but to special custom R and D parts minus any cost considerations also, ...Jeff
     
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  10. Alky V6

    Alky V6 Let's go racing, boyz!

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    Beautiful! I could not have said it better myself. This will be an exercise for the grey matter and a place to obtain feedback on a far out idea.
     
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  11. Alky V6

    Alky V6 Let's go racing, boyz!

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    Well. I had an exhaust topic written up and pushed the button to post and it was lost. Hmmm. I'll try again tomorrow.
     
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  12. Alky V6

    Alky V6 Let's go racing, boyz!

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    Let's start with the foundation of the engine. The block. Currently we have old Stage II blocks. These are becoming harder to come by. We have the TA block and the hopefully coming Champion block. Since the TA block is the only block readily available, lets start with that. Some have said that the HP level of these blocks is 2000-3000 HP. Are there any new discoveries that might have changed this projection? I have some comments on that subject, but I'd like to hear some other opinions.
     
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  13. Alky V6

    Alky V6 Let's go racing, boyz!

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    Looks like this is going to end before it gets started. Oh well. I tried. Sorry Guys.
     
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  14. 1dmbth

    1dmbth Member

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    What are your comments? Since no one has made 2000+ horsepower I think it would be hard to say what may happen.
     
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  15. SPEEDSTAR

    SPEEDSTAR New Member

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    The New TA Alum Stage 2 inspired V6 engine block

    OK, ..I will venture into a calculated, speculative response to this subject.
    My disclaimer, The TA block hit the nail on the head, It provides engine builders and racers and street car fans, actually everone a great foundation to have a new alum. version of the engine that most of us are simply enamored with., and fills this need very well.
    First off , I will do inventory of all the info I have on the product,
    TA did alot of research before they drew up the first blue-print. They spoke with the best in the industry, they had to consider marketability, R and D cost,tooling cost, production cost, mat. cost, labor ,etc, ....I believe this was a huge project, with enormous decissions to be made. Cut to the block,....it is a well thought out designed cast alum block,not a billet block because cost would probably be in the range of 10,000.00 to 12,000.00. TA followed the design parameter of a proven 2000 to 3000 hp cast alum top fuel engine, .....Let me stop here and qualify what I will say next...I am a Tool and Die Maker, have been for the last 20 or so years and have also built alot of race engines and have been aquaintances with alot of pro racers , nat. acclaimed engine builders, and have experience in producing high performance parts for these guys. I"ve enjoyed having conversations with them on what it takes for them to have enough confidence in a performance product to use it . Because Pro-racers/engine builders have alot at stake, they look for a product that performs outragiously-spectacularly well, and does not fail. I will finish this in the next reply.
     
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  16. SPEEDSTAR

    SPEEDSTAR New Member

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    So a part or product must be as perfect as possible,and even more so if it is new and highly innovative, ....TAs block is . This cast alum. block is not a finished product , just like when a race team buys a new maclaren race car , it takes alot more work on it for it to have the potential to win pro races, If you hand this block to a machine shop that is not exp. or really prepared to do this jewel in the rough justice, then its not the blocks fault, Dave Ficus won a nat. class with this block as the foundation, I wonder how much hp his makes, ...How much power has been made with this block, 1400hp?, 1600hp? I believe that in the right hands[ machine shop with TA block dedicated tooling that incorporates the finest of race engine machining practices and assembly methods could build a short block that could handle 2500hp for short periods, BUT I would only feel confident if the block had extra strength from some sort of girdle at the oil pan rail that ties the mains and block rails into the heads and engine plate with stressed connections. So in conclusion, I believe The block has never seen over 2000hp yet? Show me one that has produced 2900hp, [will need alot of nitro-methane forced in] and the claim becomes true. Now someone may build one in the future , but realistically and for all practical purposes 1800hp will be a very hard barrier to break........Jeff.....My Kriponite flame suit is on :)
     
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  17. Alky V6

    Alky V6 Let's go racing, boyz!

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    I agree on everything mentioned. Having assembled two TA blocked engines up to this moment. These are some tips that I feel are important.
    The early (first run) TA block should be converted to the 3 bolt mount pattern in high HP levels or motor plates should be incorporated. A simple operation to do.
    Very carefully check the gasket sealing surface on the block where the timing cover seals to it. There is a spot that allows a leak and material will need to be welded or epoxied to the timing cover and surfaced to make a good seal.
    Mounting a gear drive unit is possible with a bit of work.
    The head stud holes in the deck should have inserts installed for high HP levels. Care must be taken to make sure the inserts are installed straight and in proper position. Good guides will be required to accomplish this.
    A cast aluminum pan can help stabilize the mains and skirt area with tight fitting bolt holes.

    Good start. Lets see if anyone else can come up with any tips.

    I realize that we may not get a lot of participation from the professional engine building guys. They could be concerned with helping their competition, or making themselves or others look bad. I completely understand the concern and can only hope that some will participate in a friendly manner.
     
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  18. Alky V6

    Alky V6 Let's go racing, boyz!

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    Before we leave the subject of blocks, I'd like to add some ideas for a fantasy block. This would be an alcohol and/or nitro burner.

    Higher cam location - This would allow the use of aluminum rods with the proper design at the beam to rod journal transistion area. With the cam at its current position, not enough meat can be built into an aluminum rod to give it the proper strength. If nitro was to be the planned fuel, this would be a must modification. Aluminum IS the preferred material for nitro engines. They tend to absorb some of the pounding that takes place in a nitro engine. Kind of like a shock absorber.

    Thicker sleeves and solid jackets - no coolant passages. This would work for a race only alcohol/nitro engine.

    Taller deck height? - what do you guys think about this.

    What about larger head studs?

    Larger diameter lifter bores.

    Thicker material or ribbing on the outside of the block, bore to skirt area.

    These are only suggestions for a max effort block and in no way is meant to be construed as shortcomings of the current block. TA did a beautiful job on their block and should be commended.
     
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  19. 1dmbth

    1dmbth Member

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    How about more cubic inches?
     
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  20. chevyII

    chevyII Active Member

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    A tall deck,raised cam with .250 thick cylinders. I think Big Stu was talking about a billet block for strenth. I'm all for the new forum ,theres alot of questions and taboo things that could be asked/discussed.
     
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