Alternator whine again, ground directly to battery.

Discussion in 'Car Audio' started by GNRick, Nov 25, 2007.

  1. A2000RICH

    A2000RICH Active Member

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    rich-----sorry you are offended but i mean no harm-------its just that i get a little frustrated after hearing the same stuff year after year that simply is not true-------there is a difference between music and audio----------one is art and the other is science------audio is a science and should be treated as such-------and its not rocket science------the physics are well understood-----but not always understood by installers that haven't taken advanced courses in science and physics---------they believe what other installers tell them and they read magazines that are influenced by advertising departments--------all facets of science are plagued with this but audio is one of the worst-------for example----ANY scientist knows that electrostatic noise can be eliminated easily with shielding---------and at least some installers know that ignition spark noise is electrostatic------any scientist knows that electromagnetic noise is inductively coupled and thats what alternator noise in a car is------few installers know that this type of noise is caused by loop area and i don't mean "ground loops"-------and no amount of shielding is gonna stop it--------you might as well use pasta noodles on the wires cause its gonna do as much to stop the noise as those thin braided or foil shields------even the useless "triple" ones--------and loop area noise isn't caused by multiple ground connections nor can it be eliminated by single point power grounding of components since virtually all components today have isolated switching supplies------most installers have no clue what this even means as is evidenced by the famous "hook all the grounds to one spot"--------i really love the superstition about how necessary it is to run the power wires and signal wires down different sides of the car--------99.999% of all installers believe this and yet there is no science to support it-------just old installers tales---------and installers will argue this to the death--------they just don't understand science-------and haven't bothered to do testing to support their beliefs-------sorry i am a little short on patience and installer voodoo------ but don't mind taking time to help folks solve their problem---------i've been in touch with gn rick and we will solve this problem and when the system is quiet we will let everyone know what was the problem and its not gonna be the alternator or the grounds------promise....................RC
     
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  2. GNRick

    GNRick senior member

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    Won't cost a thing. RC already said I should post the results, then he will explain them. First step I'll do is the procedure as outlined by Mr. Navone, regarding moving my head unit to the trunk. Well, actually the first thing is to run by the gas station for some kerosene. It's cold out tonight and my garage isn't heated. Take care everybody!
     
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  3. garyk1970

    garyk1970 Electronics Moderator Staff Member

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    Boy oh Boy! ive went and got my fire fighter suit so let the flaming continue:rolleyes:
    this reminds me of one time i was talking automotive electrical trouble shooting/repair with my father-in-law,who by the way is a real life Nuclear Engineer.we argued for an hour only to find out after we broke out some parts and a volt meter we we talking about the same thing:rolleyes: .
    not everyone including myself has got a masters degree in electrical enginering nor did I take "advanced courses in science and physics" ,luckilly i have graduated in the school of Hard Knocks:p .(which in my case is a twenty year course)
    It only takes running rcas and power wires down the same side in a car and hear the noise that was injected,um i mean "electrostatic" to realize it's not a good idea.I dont have time to do scientific experiments on cars i work on.Doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results is called insanity:eek: .
    whats my problem you may ask? is all the flaming going on here,if you disagree with what im suggesting,say so and tell me/us why,just dont type how stupid the suggestions are,at least we are trying to help,i dont care if youre the president of the U.S. you have to sit down to $hit and wipe your a$$ like everyone else here......
    unlike others,im not star stuck and im not going to brown nose you......
    oh, Richard if you feel alittle poke in the side thats me with my voodoo doll of you.......
     
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  4. ITSAV6

    ITSAV6 It's my Granny's car!

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    ???????????

    Has the cause been found yet?
    RC I have a ? for you about the Masters Invatational. I was there when you first brought the GN there and won the $50k, was it just as Speakerworks built it at that time? I heard it was back then because several other competitors had voiced "displeasure" that you bought it, trailered it there and took the money. And eluded to the CAN wins were all because "CAN was Alpine events and Speakerworks was sponsered by Alpine". bla bla Didn't you mod the horns? Speakerworks was talking noise about that at one time if I remember correctly.......just wondering.
    Beautiful car and stereo in any event. Do you have some current pics of it?

    Threse things have caused me to get whine in stereo....
    1. Bad RCA's
    2. RCA on deck/Eq broken on the board
    3. Had a new Eq with a cracked board
    4. Had a PPI amp repaired and it would do it(had to send it back the 3rd time)
    5. Had a deck that was grounding thru the RCA's to the amp and it picked up noise from everything elec(wipers etc) when you turned on or off.(I didn't install it:) ) If you unplugged the RCA's the deck would go off,simply grounded the deck.
     
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  5. A2000RICH

    A2000RICH Active Member

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    as for the car------i bought it in nov 89 and worked on it day and night till the masters in april 90-----i spent more upgrading it than i paid for it--------i never failed to give the guys at speakerworks credit for what they did but they were extremely jealous from day one of everything i did to the car----i even shared some of the upgrades that i did to the car with them and a lot of them became "USD" products-------my noise gate, dynamic expander, the first small driver waveguides, the remote multistage gain control and several other things--------but they seemed to be a close family and could not ever give credit to anyone else-------personally i felt that they were somehow miffed that i won so much money with the car-----thats all i can figure..........................RC
    i had our gnrick do a couple simple tests tonight and they totally rule out every suggestion that has been propogated on this thread----i have limited time and so does gnrick so what normally takes 2 to 4 hours will take take 2 or 3 evenings--------when this is finished i will let gnrick explain what i had him do and why he did it and the science behind it--------my partner and i have a troubleshooting algorithm that makes this easy to do over the phone----- i have used it hundreds of times sucessfully and dave has used it thousands of times in the last 20 years with 100% success-------we don't get ordinary problems-------we get calls when the installers have tried everything they know how to do and the customer is complaining---------we get calls from the tech help at a lot of the component manufacturers when they can't help their dealers solve a problem and we get occasional calls from car manufacturers--------we recently helped a car manufacturer solve a noise problem with a head unit-----they built nearly 30,000 cars with a noise problem and didn't realize it till thousands of them were shipboard on the way to the US..........................RC
     
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  6. 54Rich

    54Rich Member

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    Appreciate the response. I could debate your paragraph, but it wouldn't do anyone any good. For the most part I agree with you.

    But, why not share the troubleshooting algorithm with everyone here? That part I guess I don't understand. Why should this be written like a big secret :confused:

    I think a lot of what was stated here just maybe good practice, tried and true ways installing. It's good to be consistent from an installation perspective. There is a whole host of people on board here, some that have done this a million times, others maybe this is the first time. So it's an injustice to just make blanket statements. Based on your first response to me, I wouldn't want everyone here to think that all their issues could be solved by installing cat 5. You and I both know that UTP, or better yet STP, is only as good as the person installing it. Kink the cabling or do not terminate correctly and it causes more problems than what it's worth.

    I don't solve automotive issues for a living, however, I do solve RF issues in large buildings. I have seen a whole host of things that you wouldn’t suspect causing interference problems. Most are related to shoty installation or a combination of multiple shoty installations. So I support a consistent approach, weather you can prove it in the lab or not.

    So I'm looking forward to the answer, I'd like to think that I'll learn something from this :confused: I'll go sit by my down by my bowl now and wait.

    Rich
     
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  7. zeus87gn

    zeus87gn Automotive Neurosurgeon

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    Subscribed. Can't wait to hear the results.

    Interesting challenge there Richard.
     
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  8. GregInAtl

    GregInAtl Active Member

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    garyk1970, you made mention of ppl here kissing RCs a$$....and brown nosing him. "unlike others,im not star stuck and im not going to brown nose you......
    "
    Call me guilty, I'd love to sit and talk with RC or Navone to expand my knowledge. I know history, and its the best prediction tool for the future. RC has proven himself a knowledgable industry leader, between him and Navone, possible THE leaders in the scientific proof side of audio, and music reproduction in a closed environment. I also feel my 20 yrs have given me knowledge WELL beyond most peoples, even most competitors (one of my best friends won IASCA finals Pro Ultimate class this year....so we know a little about sound reproduction in closed environments as well)
    Does RC come across cocky? yup, does it change the facts? Nope. I don't really care who wins the silly flame fest, all I wanna know is the answer to how this noise is being generated. It is that simple. Its like going back to a high school class 101, and being tested , but not on what you know, but why you believe it.
    Cheers to all, in the end we all want the same goal, let the facts show us the answer, and who cares who is wrong in the end, just the result.
    GC
     
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  9. A2000RICH

    A2000RICH Active Member

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    guys-----please be patient and when this problem is solved we can all go over exactly what the cause was------how we fixed it-----and why it worked-----as well as why the standard installer voodoo cures have nothing to do with it---------and i will share a printed copy of the troubleshooting algorithm with everyone to download for future use-------my partner dave navone who is a physicist and just darn smart guy developed it over a period of years--------no offense to anyone but guys of his educational caliber don't usually spend much time in car audio install bays------a lot of car audio guys that have had the opportunity to learn from him are much better off because of him and they know it--------nothing secret here----dave has shared his knowledge with installers for years through seminars, books and magazine articles------many of his "students" have moved on over the years to become product specialists with component manufacturers or gone on to even better careers-------dave is a little more of a "friendlier" teacher than i am and much more of a people person----sorry if i have offended anyone------its just that science is science and voodoo is well-----?????................RC
     
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  10. TURBOV6

    TURBOV6 "SECRET PARTS" Staff Member

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    Everyone should listen to RC and especially David Navone. Listen to what they have to say they are the "experts" in this field.
     
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  11. A2000RICH

    A2000RICH Active Member

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    that isn't a challenge------here's a challenge,
    Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ
    nearly two decades old and still standing--------and you know i'm good for the money------i just like to get to the heart of things...............RC
     
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  12. Phoneguy

    Phoneguy Cometic HG stress tester

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    Subscribed

    Bryan
     
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  13. zeus87gn

    zeus87gn Automotive Neurosurgeon

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    Actually no. I don't know your good for the money.

    I don't know anything about you at all except that you are good friends with Dennis Kirban and you seem to be a stereo guru, an electrical wizard, a PowerMaster expert (not a big point there) and have a solution to the motor oil problem.

    I will look at this other challenge in the near future.
    They both sound odd to me, but I don't know all the details of this new one you have mentioned.


    Thread content...
    Yes, introduced noise is a real problem.
    Magnetic fields are real and easily generated.
    Good part is it can be solved quite easily.
     
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  14. A2000RICH

    A2000RICH Active Member

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    how about asking dennis if he thinks i can cover my challenge-----------if that doesn't satisfy you i can always put one of my GNX's up for collateral....................RC
     
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  15. GNRick

    GNRick senior member

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    It's late here and I'll keep it short. Richard talked me through some testing procedures and I think the main problem I had was the fact I ran one set of line out cables from the head unit down the drivers side of my car, and the other set down the passenger side. His recommendation is to tape them together and run them down the passenger side. Also, thinner cables will sound just as good as fat expensive ones, and will probably pick up less noise. My next test after moving the cables is to hook up the head unit to the factory power and ground wires in the dash and see if everything is ok. I currently have the power and ground coming from the trunk. I'm sure Richard will elaborate if I got something wrong or missed something. I can say that there is no hummm or whine in the system as it sits now, with the car running or with it off. :smile:
     
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  16. ITSAV6

    ITSAV6 It's my Granny's car!

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    ...........

    That is not what Patrick(Zeus87GN)was saying, I think he meant he doesn't know you in a personal way. I know a local guy here with 3 Vipers(2 are TT Hennesy),Lingenfelter TT Vette,and a new Z06 w/TT just done to it. I know he has it but I wouldn't trust him to be good for it.....unless someone else held the $'s:biggrin:
    Let's get back to the problem, noise in the audio system. 4 GNX's,8 Vipers, 12 Z06's....an azz load of money,noise free stereo..........frickin' priceless;)
     
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  17. ITSAV6

    ITSAV6 It's my Granny's car!

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    ??

    So did you actually move the rca's yet or just take them "out the loop"? Why did you run the deck power/ground from the trunk? I have had more of the big rca's mess up than the standard ones:) The mustang I just sold had 2 sets of rca's and 2 12ga power cables down the pass side with no noise,it was already there so I used it and only had a Punch 120 anyway.:(
    Glad ur noise is gone!:) Let us know what the actual prob was when you isolate it.:cool:
     
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  18. garyk1970

    garyk1970 Electronics Moderator Staff Member

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    here's a REAL challenge,bring me the car Richard,and i will challenge you $100,000 that i WILL get ALL the engine whine out (under my terms,void where prohibited,voodoo not included,batteries not included,blah,blah,blah)when i do,you owe me $100k :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :biggrin:

    wait a minute,while im thinking about it,there will be some voodoo,i will curse the car to run no slower than 10.0's..............as a added bonus on Rc's part(got to share part of the 100k)
     
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  19. GNRick

    GNRick senior member

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    Gary- I can bring you the car. However, the whine will be gone by that time. I'm going to visit my brother in Marietta around Christmas, about 3.5 hours north of you.
     
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  20. GNRick

    GNRick senior member

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    I used one new RCA cable, and one existing RCA cable. I ran the power/ground from the trunk to first check the integrity of the head unit and amps. Once we knew there was no whine, then we knew the head unit and amps were operating correctly. This was done with a short RCA cable and short power/remote/memory/ground wires. At the start of the test, we didn't know where the whine was coming from, although I guess a good bet would be from the front half of the car. Then I installed long wires but kept them hooked up in the trunk. I moved the head unit up to the center console, still no whine. Also at this point, the RCA cable running down the driver's side was not hooked up. I'm hoping I can use the factory black ground wire, ignition power wire (red), the green wire, and the orange wire in the dash for the memory. I'll experiment over the next couple of days and will report back.
     
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