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Discussion in 'Stage II Tech' started by The Swede, Sep 18, 2004.
Thanks for sharing your web site, good luck with your project!
Looks good so far! I think you'll be surprised how fast you will go with only 1000hp in a chassis that aerodynamic and light. Should be a blast...
A nice piece of art and performance arriwed to cold and snowy Sweden....
Got an elbow and throttle body today. Nice pieces, but need som minor work to be perfect.
It's an interesting engine design approach but I'm sorry, IMO and IME there is just no way that the peak cyl pressure will be 4000 psi and live. Even on an 1800 hp engine. Unless you also plan to weld the heads on around the inside of the bores and make it like an old Offy style engine, etc, etc. 4000psi * ~ 12.5 sq in would be some ~ 50,000 lbs (25 tons) of peak force pushing up against the head and down on the piston. That's like stacking 14 GN's on it. ~ 3/8" of aluminum will move "appreciably" in that case, and the bolted together head/block joint would never be able to keep a lid on that much. Not to mention the tremendous loads on the bottom end. Fortunately for us all the real path to more power is not by ever increasing cyl pressure. The engine can only keep a lid on so much pressure.
If you'd like, I'd be more than happy to come help you measure the real wot cyl pressure in your engine when you get it running. I have the equipment.
BTW- nice progress for the STB racing team Keep the updates coming. My friend in Norway says it has been snowing like crazy lately!! Ugh...
Excellent point Todd. Those pressures do seem astronomical. If you don't mind giving an opinion, what would you calculate the safe BMEP and/or cylinder pressure to be for an alcohol setup? Or for that matter a gasoline setup also? Best of components, of course. You've seen some real world numbers and it would be interesting to get some first hand knowledge on that subject. Still running the TR? You were running the nitrous setup if I remember correctly. If I'm ever in the area with the car, I'll definitely be looking you up. I'd love to get some real world data for comparisons.
Don I'll come to you if you want to do the testing I don't know what the factory certified absolute maximum is for the Buick S2 racing v6 but IMO and ME with gasoline and diesel engines (incl testing at the research facility), the max safe peak pressure is probably < 2000 psi, in general. Personally I like to see <~ 1600-1700 psi max on my own engine. It doesn't hurt gaskets or anything when tuned like that.
It can be misleading to try and think deeper about things in terms of BMEP, which is just a calculated average "effective" pressure used for shorthand about the power achieved. From the www:
"For completeness, the definition of BMEP is: the average (mean) pressure which, if imposed on the pistons uniformly from the top to the bottom of each power stroke, would produce the measured (brake) power output."
"Note that BMEP is purely theoretical and has little to do with actual cylinder pressures. It is simply an effective comparison tool."
Amen Speaking of misleading though, the glossy rags parrot misinformation and help keep things off kilter. We've probably all seen a statement like this: "Nitrous works by drastically increasing the cylinder pressure". Again, fortunately they're wrong, at least when things are done correctly. But it does make things confusing when the accepted "truth" is in fact "false". Lol...
Todd, your on. I should have the stage I configuration back together in a month. I take it, we'll need to load the engine. Which would be best, local 1/8 mile track or local chassis dyno? If there is recording available, would the track be the better bet? I'll get with you in a few weeks to discuss the details. I'm looking forward to the testing. It can only help in bringing my calcs into focus.
Don the dyno would be the best situation by far. Keep me posted on your progress please and we'll talk soon!
It may take a bit longer than I thought to get the engine back together. During my preliminary inspection of pistons, pins, and rods, I found two more very slightly bent piston pins. Custom order Ti. We all know how long it can take to have custom parts made :frown:. This has brought about some new thought as to why the one Carrillo rod failed. First I should note that the rod failed (bent, folded) in the side to side plane. When I've showed the rod to other people, they were surprised at how the rod failed along that plane. However, when you start adding a bent piston pin into the picture, the fog slowly lifts and it becomes easy to visualize how the rod was bent along that plane. If the bending and deformation of the pin is enough to disallow free rotation in both the piston and rod, a wrenching action occurs on the small end of the rod. This wrenching action becoming highest at the point of peak cylinder pressure. The same type of wrenching can occur on the large end of the rod with a bearing seazure. We've all heard of that scenario. The assortment of dynamics that occurs in an engine truly amazes me. I'm going to try putting a rush on those pins. Todd, I have a dyno facility lined up.
For those running methanol in a Buick V6, be careful about throwing too much timing at it, particularly at high boost. Because of the combustion chamber efficiency of the Buick engine, not as much extra ignition timing advance is necessary. Depending on your CR, at peak torque, full boost, start with 22 degrees and work up slowly if your brave enough for the task. I've been to the low 30s, but looking back on it, I was awfully lucky with those particular tuneups. They were also on the lean threshold (A/F ratio). The CR you choose will limit you to the amount of boost you can get away with. Even with alcohol. Stay around the low 9s to one and you can enjoy being able to throw as much boost at it as you want. At least into the mid forties (psi) if all other components are matched properly (cam, turbo efficiency, intercooler efficiency, etc.).
I know it's not a Buick engine but have you seen this?:
SCE enlisted the services of renowned engine builder Kenny Duttweiler to test this revolutionary head gasket. We mounted Duttweiler's personal twin turbocharged 286 cu in Small Block Chevrolet on the dyno and proceeded to thrash it in an attempt to test the limits of the new head gasket. Over a 2 week period we made 52 dyno pulls developing over 1833 hp at 9300 rpm with a peak boost of 43psi.
The ICS Titan head gasket was installed without sealants, o-rings or receiver grooves. Pressure transducers were mounted at the gasket and data sampling occurred at a rate of 120 times per second to confirm that there were no coolant or combustion leaks at any point in the tests.
A closer look at the numbers shows that the new ICS Titan head gasket sealed over 6.4 hp/cubic inch at an estimated 3300 psi cylinder pressure. We were as pleased with the performance of the new head gasket as we were impressed with the colossal horsepower of Kenny's "little" engine. "
You are the man, thanks for the email.
Impressive looking gasket.
Yes I saw that awhile back. And those pressure "estimates" are also probably from back calculating from BMEP, and are thus also erroneous and misleading. But it helps the selling point about the new headgaskets.
We have a local guy planning to try them on his new TSE stroker mill.
Update, the chassie is made by Jerry Bickel in USA and have been updated in Denmark, the struts are handmade in Sweden.
We are thinking about to update the chassie to a 25.1e, only 3 pipes to weld there but we think we must use a chassie builder to do that (rules)
Another thing is that we now have a place in our local drag racing club's garage to work with the car and get hot tips from guys like www.protruck.se and www.teeceeracing.se both teams are racing in Top Door Slammer, almost like pro mod.
The crazy truck is calculated to pull 3000hp.
Trying to do some updates of our website, but I´m not that good at it. Should have gotten help from a friend at work, but he had to quit...
So, here are links to a couple of pictures from today. They are about 50kb each:
our little spot at the clubhouse
cowl induction from the side
Turbonetics vs 5" tach
Turbonetics vs Ericsson T630
Weaver 3stage oilpump (thanks Stu)
Fisting is fun :biggrin:
Looks awesome you guys.... that turbo is a monster!!!
Thanks Stu. The turbo is a monster for sure
What size turbo is that?
It looks like a Y2K Series.....
I was scared to click on the fisting picture becuase I have seen some of you swedes in action before!