Kirbans ZDDP

[at7we2]

It is designed for off road use only just like race oil.

I understand that, but as Mr. Spina pointed out above, those words are meaningless to the EPA. What I was trying to say was, I didn't understand how Kirban, or anyone else could sell ZDDP after GM had to stop selling it. Hoever, I think Mr. Spina also addressed that in his posts as he indicated GM probably was not forced to stop selling thier EOS, but rather they did so for economic reasons. Makes sense to me.

As a sidebar to that, I wish I had known more about this subject a few years ago when I had my hardtop GN. I thought I was doing the right thing by running Mobil 1 oil but all of the sudden the thing started eating cams and bearings. In reality there was probably multiple factors at work, but I'm sure the oil was a big part of it. I finally got frustraed with the car and sold it, but it wasn't long before I bought another one. I'm a glutton for punishment like that. :biggrin:

 

[2QUIK6]

It is designed for off road use only just like race oil.

As pointed out in the other ZDDP thread I posted the link to earlier, it is a terrible idea to use race oil in a street driven car due to other additives that are good for multi use oil that are not in race oil. Race oil is meant to be changed after every race.

 

[IronCityTurbo6]

I'm using the oil I run in our heavy trucks 15w40 Wolfs Head. Still has zinc says it right on the MSDS. 500 gallons at a clip. Stacie what does Tom run in the Big Ugly Red thing, betcha it contains zinc.

 

[2QUIK6]

I'm using the oil I run in our heavy trucks 15w40 Wolfs Head. Still has zinc says it right on the MSDS. 500 gallons at a clip. Stacie what does Tom run in the Big Ugly Red thing, betcha it contains zinc.

Zinc by itself is not enough. ZDDP is a specific compond formed by zinc and phospherus and is no longer in the SM oil formulation which all oils will go to by Jan 2008.

 

[A2000RICH]

guys-----i can assure all of you that ZDDP is not illegal to sell----------its not illegal to put it in oil------its not illegal to sell oil that has it in it------its not illegal to put it in your old car------its not illegal to put it in your brand new car---------its NOT a controlled substance--------if it wasn't legal I would not have anything to do with it---------here is what is also true--------the epa really has no interest in whats in the oil----------they care about what comes out of the tail pipe-----------they have demanded of the car companies that they have to guarantee the performance of the emissions systems to perform "as new" for 140,000 miles----------the car companies for years have had to guarantee the emissions systems independent of the cars normal warranty-----------when our GN's were new this emission guarantee was 50,000 miles and that was not really a problem but three times that really is especially to the new standards---------its the car companies that have pressured the oil companies to remove the additives that are a threat to their warranties-------since there was no suitable alternate EP additive for the oil the only choice the car companies had was to specify oil without zddp and use roller lifters----------we all know that roller lifters are not new---------they have been around for decades but they cost more than plain lifters and the car companies did not use them for obvious reasons-------- but eventually more stringent emission regulations left them with no alternative so little by little they started converting the engines and changing the oil-------today the flat lifter is as rare as a carbureator--------virtually no new cars have either---------if there are any i can assure you they aren't worth a darn---------what you can't do is put zddp in oil and get it passed by the API for approval in new cars---------it is not illegal to put it in your new car but good luck when your convertor fails prematurely and the dealer fails to warranty it----------why did GM quit selling EOS????----we may never know for sure but i have a theory-------let me rant a minute-----they had been selling it for thirty years and never was it more needed than NOW-------it was a perfect product at a perfect time-------so they dropped it-------GM is/has been one of the greatest companies in the history of the industrial age----------i believe it was president Truman that said "whats good for GM is good for America"--------yet last quarter this company lost 39 billion dollars while making some of the greatest cars in the market----------this loss is unprecedented in the history of free enterprise----------this is the company that decided to drop the rear wheel drive platform in favor of "wrong wheel drive" while the commercial market like cops and cabs screamed for them----------this is the company that dropped the Camaro with no replacement-------this is the compay that puts Corvette engines in Cadillacs and markets them as performance vehicles------i could continue this idiot list for an hour---------why wouldn't they drop EOS ????????----------it seems to me that its goes right along with GM policy----------and by the way the term "off road use only" has little value and offers virtually no protection from a legal standpoint but it does show good intent------and sometimes that has some value------- believe me i am no newcomer to litigation--------i know first hand the legal system is totally screwed up-------right or wrong, guilty or innocent has nothing to do with it-------it's simply a lawyer contest and is like most sports where the best trained, most practiced and best financed team wins......................RC

 

[86gngirl]

guys-----i can assure all of you that ZDDP is not illegal to sell----------its not illegal to put it in oil------its not illegal to sell oil that has it in it------its not illegal to put it in your old car------its not illegal to put it in your brand new car---------its NOT a controlled substance--------if it wasn't legal I would not have anything to do with it---------here is what is also true--------the epa really has no interest in whats in the oil----------they care about what comes out of the tail pipe-----------they have demanded of the car companies that they have to guarantee the performance of the emissions systems to perform "as new" for 140,000 miles----------the car companies for years have had to guarantee the emissions systems independent of the cars normal warranty-----------when our GN's were new this emission guarantee was 50,000 miles and that was not really a problem but three times that really is especially to the new standards---------its the car companies that have pressured the oil companies to remove the additives that are a threat to their warranties-------since there was no suitable alternate EP additive for the oil the only choice the car companies had was to specify oil without zddp and use roller lifters----------we all know that roller lifters are not new---------they have been around for decades but they cost more than plain lifters and the car companies did not use them for obvious reasons-------- but eventually more stringent emission regulations left them with no alternative so little by little they started converting the engines and changing the oil-------today the flat lifter is as rare as a carbureator--------virtually no new cars have either---------if there are any i can assure you they aren't worth a darn---------what you can't do is put zddp in oil and get it passed by the API for approval in new cars---------it is not illegal to put it in your new car but good luck when your convertor fails prematurely and the dealer fails to warranty it----------why did GM quit selling EOS????----we may never know for sure but i have a theory-------let me rant a minute-----they had been selling it for thirty years and never was it more needed than NOW-------it was a perfect product at a perfect time-------so they dropped it-------GM is/has been one of the greatest companies in the history of the industrial age----------i believe it was president Truman that said "whats good for GM is good for America"--------yet last quarter this company lost 39 billion dollars while making some of the greatest cars in the market----------this loss is unprecedented in the history of free enterprise----------this is the company that decided to drop the rear wheel drive platform in favor of "wrong wheel drive" while the commercial market like cops and cabs screamed for them----------this is the company that dropped the Camaro with no replacement-------this is the compay that puts Corvette engines in Cadillacs and markets them as performance vehicles------i could continue this idiot list for an hour---------why wouldn't they drop EOS ????????----------it seems to me that its goes right along with GM policy----------and by the way the term "off road use only" has little value and offers virtually no protection from a legal standpoint but it does show good intent------and sometimes that has some value------- believe me i am no newcomer to litigation--------i know first hand the legal system is totally screwed up-------right or wrong, guilty or innocent has nothing to do with it-------it's simply a lawyer contest and is like most sports where the best trained, most practiced and best financed team wins......................RC

Thank you Mr. Clark for giving some insight on this. Sorry to have questioned your product, but I assure you it was with good intent and I wanted to be better informed. I guess now days its a duty to question things. I thank you for taking the time, energy, and money to make a product that will further the life of our cars and many more.

Is there a brand/grade of oil that you recommend to use with ZDDP?
Thank you for all your help.

 

[VadersV6]

Pretty sure I was the first to mention ZDDP on this board and now theres a product named ZDDP? Why not just use a product WITH ZDDP...which is pretty much any oil without the starburst symbol or any additive out there? My last oil change I tried something new. I got about 2mpg better mileage with royal purple (used only RP in my cobra for 5 years but for some reason didnt use in on the GN till recently) and I went 10,000 miles on my last oil change without even changing teh filter. When my oil drained out it didnt look that bad at all. I used to go 8000 regularly in the 600hp cobra and it would drain out looking like new. Mobil 1 drained out like tar after 4000. That means the oil is burning. Period. Anyway, Pep Boys is doing some serious price gouging with the RP so I only bought 3 quarts, and the rest was rotella. I just ran half and half. I get the burn off and coking protection of the RP, along with the moly which protects the lobes and fills crevices in cylinder walls and bearings, and the ZDDP in the rotella which is a sacrificial layer of minerals that the lifter wipes off, instead of the lifter wiping metal off the lobe..

 

[2QUIK6]

Why not just use a product WITH ZDDP...which is pretty much any oil without the starburst symbol or any additive out there? .... and the ZDDP in the rotella which is a sacrificial layer of minerals that the lifter wipes off, instead of the lifter wiping metal off the lobe..

I don't think the starburst has anything to do with the content of ZDDP, but is more that the oil has been "certified" to increase gas mileage...take Castrol Syntech 10w-30..it has the starburst, but the 20w-50 does not.
Any oil with the SL or SM API designations has little to no ZDDP in it, that includes Rotella, I beleive the Shell logo on the bottle changed recently, if you find it with the yellow logo it does, but by Jan 2008, no Rotella will have any more ZDDP than any other brand.
There has been several in depth discussions about all of the above in the Engine Tech forum, just passing on what I have read over there as I am concerned as well.

But as far as best brand to use with ZDDPPlus, any generic brand you choose, add ZDDPlus and it has all the protection you need for your flat tappet.

 

[turbofish38]

I think the reason GM discontinued it was because they no longer need to use it. With the advent of roller cams why would you. The 100K cat issue was just the excuse to remove it from the shelfs. GM hasn't used a flat tappet lifter since 1996. As far as V-8s and V-6's go. There are a few 4 bangers though. Mostly the import OHC motors. I wonder what they think about them? I haven't seen any TSBs or information on the issue from GM either. I'm beginning to think this whole zinc issue may be overblown hysteria. I relize everybody is pointing fingers at everybody else but once the cam is broken in, is it really neccessary? I'm still researching and this is my opinion so please dont start posting links to every thing out there.

Okay so I'm sitting here daydreaming and I'm thinking why would the oil manufacturers stop making oil with zinc and boron? There are tons of engines that dont fall under EPA regulations....yet. I'm thinking about gas powered irrigation pumps and those huge generators used by everybody from hospitals to the Pentagon. Forklifts and such. Yeah I know about 15W40 diesel oil but that will be zinc free sooner or later too. I'm thinking because of these examples that somewhere on Earth you'll still be able to by oil with ZDDP well into the future.

 

[Turbo Steve]

modern day snake oil from DK or buy STP oil treatment for $1.49 loaded with zinc and avail at any Walmart

 

[Boost231]

i just placed and order today and i was told its on back order

 

[2QUIK6]

modern day snake oil from DK or buy STP oil treatment for $1.49 loaded with zinc and avail at any Walmart

I think the STP stuff was tested and found to have very little ZDDP, again, zinc by itself isn't very helpful, its the compound made from zinc and phospherus, ie ZDDP. I know the STP stuff was covered in the other thread.

 

[Buicksx2]

If Molly signs each bottle of ZDDP does that make it an instant collectors item

 

[GNocide]

stacie- didnt you go to kirbans sunday dinner presentation to see the tests during the molly trip?

 

[A2000RICH]

modern day snake oil from DK or buy STP oil treatment for $1.49 loaded with zinc and avail at any Walmart

steve--------nothing modern about it----------zddp has been an important additive in quality oil for about 60 years------how does that equate to snake oil???----------- now its either greatly reduced in most formulations or there's none at all--------no speculation about it just fact-------it was always there for a reason----------it was always specified for oils that could meet warranty requirements of our cars--------now you can only find it in oils that are not really ideal for our cars like diesel oils or racing oils------ or specialty high priced oils--------as for STP its a fact that it only contains enough ZDDP to say it has some for marketing purposes--------it has virtually none and by the time it is diluted by five quarts of oil it is less than none--------don't believe it??? send some to a reputable lab and have it tested

 

[GNocide]

i cant believe you try to address all the know it alls frivolous claims
-that are backed by such astounding research and thousands of dollars they are willing to share with us rich,

they must be right cause everybody's doing it- its what hot now in turbo buicks
the just say no plan-
"i woulnt read anything ill just go against what he said and post to look cool"

you may need another board to just expose people and dispel rumors that become fact around here

 

[A2000RICH]

I'd like to comment on a few of your thoughts

now theres a product named ZDDP?

---------its not named ZDDP-----its ZddPlus-----

"Why not just use a product WITH ZDDP"-------because most of the oils that contain adequate amounts of zddp have other characteristics that make them less than ideal for our cars according to the original requirements specified by the manufacturer-------with the exception of higher priced "exotic oils" that cost much more than conventional oils

"I got about 2mpg better mileage with royal purple"-------while i certainly believe royal purple is good oil i have to wonder-------are you sure about the calibration of your odometer or your math???-------considering that the API rates oils as energy conserving if they can extract a mere 2% in mileage increase that seems pretty amazing-------the fact is that even then most of the savings is due to lower viscosity ratings that reduce pumping losses and not actually friction in the bearings----------in several daily driver GNs consisting of various amounts of city and hwy driving i average in the 20 mpg range-------2 mpg would amount to a ginormous 10% increase-------i doubt any reasonable person could believe that-------i do believe if that were even close to true that GM, Ford and virtually every other manufacturer would quickly make "royal purple" factory fill cause that would be the single most cost effective mileage increase since the introduction of CAFE ratings--------and the API would certainly make a "class all of its own" for "super-duper energy conserving"

"Mobil 1 drained out like tar after 4000. That means the oil is burning"-------Mobil 1 like tar?????--------in the last 20 years i have run hundreds of gallons of Mobil 1 through my personal cars including many of my several dozen GN's and i have never witnessed such a thing------doesn't seem possible since the high temperature rating of Mobil 1 is easily the equal of any other synthetics-----the ability to handle extremes of temperature at the high and low end is the single greatest attribute of synthetics to begin with-------if Mobil 1 could not handle the temps of a GN then there is virtually NO WAY that any one could even consider a conventional oil in a GN and we all know that most GN's are run with conventional oil with no problems and they were in fact originally specified from the factory to use conventional SF oil

 

[86gngirl]

stacie- didnt you go to kirbans sunday dinner presentation to see the tests during the molly trip?

Yes I was there. But again, I had gotten wrong information from a local dealer that had made me question ZDDPlus. In todays market lately, its been "If its too good to be true, then its probly not what it says it is" kind of thing. I ment no harm in my questioning, just being more informed. I care for this car as much as my children, and I question things for them too. I want to be sure I'm doing right by my car and prolonging its life for many many years to come, as I do for my kids. I feel its our duty to question things we are unsure of. I Will use ZDDPlus after being well informed of the product, due to this thread and Mr. Clark. The Kirban trip was a busy weekend, and I left there with many questions unable to ask Mr. Clark himself about the product. He has answered my questions on the matter, and thank you for that Mr. Clark.

 

[at7we2]

As I posted previously, I had several cam and bearing failures in my previous GN. The failures started after I installed higher pressure valve springs which *coincidentally* was right around the time the motor oil companies changed the formulation of most of the oils. At the time, I didn't understand what was going on with the oil.

I've used other oil additives like STP and Lucas in the past and just from looking at the products, all the other ones look like the same kind of "motor honey" that has been available for decades. This ZDDPlus stuff looks and smells totally different.

I realize that is in no way any kind of scientific analysis, but if Mr. Clark's product looked and smelled like the other products, I might be more inclined to believe it was just a new twist on an old product. However, my eyes and nose alone tell me it's significantly different.

At this point, I have no reason to believe the ZDDPlus is anything other than exactly what it is advertised as. Mr. Clark seems to know his stuff. And I've been buying parts from Dennis Kirban since the early 90's and never had any reason to question his products. In fact, he seems to be very careful about the products he associates himself with.

That's my opinion based on my experiences and observations. I can understand why plenty of people will have doubts. In the early days, most people doubted the Earth was round too. On the other hand, a healthy dose of skepticism is what prevents us from becoming Lemmings and jumping off the proverbial "cliff" one right after another. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Rob

 

[GNocide]

Yes I was there. But again, I had gotten wrong information from a local dealer that had made me question ZDDPlus. .

sometimes you need to question the dealers motives-

Richard is not a dealer or does he care to be.

kirbans a distributer -thats it -he has contacts and at the right spot at the right time
just like gnx suspension-he didn't invent it -hes a dealer

but because of customer relations or people not liking him for whatever reason -loyality to other organizations/ racing clubs ect

-the suspension must be bad!-