Premature Walbro Failure

[Mike Licht]

Mr. Clark is such a huge asset to this community!

Most people have no idea, what a great individual and knowledge base this man is, we are indeed very lucky to have him. Beside that he is a genuinely good person as well. Mr. Clark, Marianne says hello to Jill :biggrin:
Mike

 

[83ttypecooled]

Hi,
Regarding instructions on installing an external pump,I am not aware of any,but it's pretty basic. Pump placement is important; up high and very close to the tank. You can use the tank pump as a feeder, for a really kick ass system.You will need a 3/8" tee,some FI hose,some clamps and a few butt connectors,or you can solder,with heat shrink, as you wish.Under the heat shield on the passenger side is a good place to splice in.Wiring is pretty simple. If your car is hotwired, so much the better.Actually, I recommend hotwiring for this modification.Basically, you will be wiring the new pump in parallel with the tank unit.Bosch pumps tell you which one's positive. Clean ground is important,so run one to the frame.I think the power wire is red with a black stripe, but I am not sure.Probe with a test light while running to be certain.
As you can see, it is basic.Oh, one more thing. As far as parts are concerned, the people at BAP specialize in import stuff,and a pump from an old Mercedes or such will do you proud. Good luck!

 

[Jerryl]

.... Mr. Clark is such a huge asset to this community!

X2!!!!!!
I learn something every time I read his posts!

 

[87GN_70GS]

.

 

[turbot990]

i found a good pump threw advance auto parts its a bosch pump for a 1996 chevy blazer s10 pump for a vortech 4.3 with a vin code of w this is your 8th digit in the vin this a 80 psi pump works really well but make sure its for the throttle body its only 7psi.

 

[Mike Licht]

this is one of the funny things about the net. If something like this gets posted everyone panics. The number of failures in regard to total pumps sold is very small. The Walbro is still the best bang for the buck there is. In 1988 we used to hang Bosch pumps under the cars and use the stock pump for a feeder. We found if we took the stock pump out it worked even better. Then we got Walbro and Reds XP (modified Delco) pumps which were even better. The Walbro finally proving to be best which is why everyone uses them. Maybe I should dust off the old Bosch mounting brackets and order some pumps in. What is old is new again we can sell those, and then, when we get a new bigger intank we can sell those over again too! or we could wait and see what the people at Walbro have to say and then make an informed decision about what direction to go in.

Mike

 

[A2000RICH]

guys---------here are the first of the test charts----------these are the ones that graph voltage vs current vs pressure--------NOTICE that there are no FLOW numbers in this test-------the flow was whatever the pump did and whatever the regulator returned---------it clearly shows that low voltage does not increase electrical dissipation of the pump-------remember to get wattage (heating effect) we simply multiply volts X amps------i think this clearly demonstrates that low voltage is not a reason for pumps burning up-------not pumping fuel, yes-------but melting, no way---------i do have a weak but plausable theory--------notice on the walbro that the jump in current from 50 to 60 psi resulted in a much larger current increase than the jump from 40 to 50----------wish i had done a curve at 70 psi---------intuitively speaking i am sure that 70 would have shown some really big current numbers---------70 psi is not too far out of reality if your baseline is 45 ish and you run 25 lbs of boost-------are we running more boost overall these days than we used to????------i have a friend that runs 25 all the time with pump gas now that he has alcohol injection----------i doubt these relatively small pumps were ever intended to run at close to 15 amps for very long------combination of high turbo boost and volt boosters could be a recipe for problems????.....................RC

 

[JDSfastGN]

this is one of the funny things about the net. If something like this gets posted everyone panics. The number of failures in regard to total pumps sold is very small. The Walbro is still the best bang for the buck there is. In 1988 we used to hang Bosch pumps under the cars and use the stock pump for a feeder. We found if we took the stock pump out it worked even better. Then we got Walbro and Reds XP (modified Delco) pumps which were even better. The Walbro finally proving to be best which is why everyone uses them. Maybe I should dust off the old Bosch mounting brackets and order some pumps in. What is old is new again we can sell those, and then, when we get a new bigger intank we can sell those over again too! or we could wait and see what the people at Walbro have to say and then make an informed decision about what direction to go in.

Mike

Mike Im not trying to degrade the walbros but could it be the fact that we all know that there is no warranty with the pumps, so we usually just order a new one and don't bother trying to get a warranty? It just seems that I am seeing a majority of pumps that have been installed in the last year fail, and i just can't see it being coinsidence.

 

[A2000RICH]

guys---------here are some flow numbers----------horizontal scale is pressure in PSI----vertical scale is flow in GPH-----tests are run at 12-13-14 and 15 volts-------------i'll probably break them up into several posts-----------starting with a pair of 86 and 87 pumps from good running low mileage cars---------good numbers for a baseline comparison to performance pumps----------under each graph is a chart with the numerical flow values------- all numbers were rounded off to the nearest gallon-----------86 pumps are engraved 2699 and 87 pumps are engraved 2661----------not any significant difference except for the electrical connectors.............RC

 

[ijames]

Richard, thank you for collecting all this data in such a systematic, careful, accurate manner. If you can, please check the volts/amps at 70 and 80 psi on the Walbro's since many guys do run 25-30 psi boost and some of them run the base pressure up to 50 psi if they are small on the injectors. With the pump submerged in sloshing gasoline for cooling and most WOT blasts over with in less than 20 seconds it is hard to believe the pump could really suffer heat damage that quickly even if the internal dissipation is 200 W. Hmm, maybe the brushes get pitted? That is a 3x or so over-current compared to a normally aspirated car at 43 psi, but hopefully their design safety margin is much more than that .

Mike, in the old days the Bosch "204" pump seemed to be the most popular external pump (or maybe the 286), and I think it is rated a little smaller than the 340 for flow but with a much higher bypass spring pressure. Is there any other Bosch pump that you know of that would be a better choice these days? My external 204 pump was installed in 95 and is still going strong so I have never used a Walbro but always assumed I would one day, and still would right now if I needed one.

 

[A2000RICH]

Richard, thank you for collecting all this data in such a systematic, careful, accurate manner. If you can, please check the volts/amps at 70 and 80 psi on the Walbro's since many guys do run 25-30 psi boost and some of them run the base pressure up to 50 psi if they are small on the injectors. With the pump submerged in sloshing gasoline for cooling and most WOT blasts over with in less than 20 seconds it is hard to believe the pump could really suffer heat damage that quickly even if the internal dissipation is 200 W. Hmm, maybe the brushes get pitted? That is a 3x or so over-current compared to a normally aspirated car at 43 psi, but hopefully their design safety margin is much more than that .

Mike, in the old days the Bosch "204" pump seemed to be the most popular external pump (or maybe the 286), and I think it is rated a little smaller than the 340 for flow but with a much higher bypass spring pressure. Is there any other Bosch pump that you know of that would be a better choice these days? My external 204 pump was installed in 95 and is still going strong so I have never used a Walbro but always assumed I would one day, and still would right now if I needed one.

i think i can do it tomorrow night----------but i'm gonna limit it to 16 volts------------i have a bad feeling about this..................RC

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Mike, do you have a stock hanger setup to run a Bosch 044??

If so, that would be a nice alternative for us since the addition of alky can allow us to run a bigger pump deeper than ever.

I'd go that route if mine bit it and I'd bet it'd be a big hit in the E85 crowd.

 

[BetMinesFaster]

I had one of the pumps in my double pumper fail, after investigation it had one fake and one genuine...The fake failed..

Heres a link about the forgeries.....

100% Genuine Walbro Fuel Pumps

 

[WIKEDV6]

this is one of the funny things about the net. If something like this gets posted everyone panics. The number of failures in regard to total pumps sold is very small. The Walbro is still the best bang for the buck there is. In 1988 we used to hang Bosch pumps under the cars and use the stock pump for a feeder. We found if we took the stock pump out it worked even better. Then we got Walbro and Reds XP (modified Delco) pumps which were even better. The Walbro finally proving to be best which is why everyone uses them. Maybe I should dust off the old Bosch mounting brackets and order some pumps in. What is old is new again we can sell those, and then, when we get a new bigger intank we can sell those over again too! or we could wait and see what the people at Walbro have to say and then make an informed decision about what direction to go in.

Mike

Mike,it's funny how you say that, I have either two Bosch 216's or 286's on my GN with bigger feed and return lines since 1989. I have not had any issues. My Twin turbo SBC has the same setup as well no issues. Also my buddy has the same setup in his turbo SBC and put out over 1000 RWH without any issues. I guess I will be sticking with the old school stuff.

Prasad

 

[Bens87tr]

I understand where Mike is coming from, but I disagree as well. I've been on this board and all the others for the 9 years I've had my car and I've never seen this many fuel pump failures surface. Of course there have been a few along the way. Now that Chuck has done some research and found that Walbro doesn't really make the pumps it seems that all of the pieces of the puzzle are coming together. Hopefully Rich will supply some hard data on the issue. I will not be buying a new Walbro unit at this time and I think it will take a while before this current batch will be out of circulation from the vendors.

 

[Mike Licht]

I understand where Mike is coming from, but I disagree as well. I've been on this board and all the others for the 9 years I've had my car and I've never seen this many fuel pump failures surface. Of course there have been a few along the way.

While I argee there has been more recently the amount of failueres are still very small compared to the number of pumps sold.

Now that Chuck has done some research and found that Walbro doesn't really make the pumps it seems that all of the pieces of the puzzle are coming together. Hopefully Rich will supply some hard data on the issue. I will not be buying a new Walbro unit at this time and I think it will take a while before this current batch will be out of circulation from the vendors.

This is a totally false statement, TI Automotive OWNS Wlabro. Has owned them for MANY years these pumps are still being built in the same places they have for many years, this is a huge company that builds product all over the US and Europe. They have a large chunk of the OEM pump market. This was only a restructure of the existing company names.
Mike

 

[Mike Licht]

Mike,it's funny how you say that, I have either two Bosch 216's or 286's on my GN with bigger feed and return lines since 1989. I have not had any issues. My Twin turbo SBC has the same setup as well no issues. Also my buddy has the same setup in his turbo SBC and put out over 1000 RWH without any issues. I guess I will be sticking with the old school stuff.

Prasad

Two external pumps with bigger lines is a whole different world from adding a Bosch pump to the existing lines and using the stock pump for a feeded which is what was suggested. Twin 286's with bigger lines rocks, I would use that myself for a high HP application, but it is noisy and most guys are not going to change out the lines, build the pickups in the tank and do the other things needed to make that work. We tried years ago and no one was interested in a set up like that when they found out teh price and work to install.
ML

 

[Bens87tr]

This is a totally false statement, TI Automotive OWNS Wlabro. Has owned them for MANY years these pumps are still being built in the same places they have for many years, this is a huge company that builds product all over the US and Europe. They have a large chunk of the OEM pump market. This was only a restructure of the existing company names.
Mike

My mistake. I misread Chuck's earlier post.

 

[salvageV6]

So where exactly are the new TR 340 fuel pumps being made?

It's obvious that after the TI buyout in 1999 the quality has slipped some.

Why did you leave out Mexico for production plants?

Who told you they are being built in the same place they had been for many years?

British owned companies have been historically known to be very cheap owners. :frown:

 

[RUQWKNF]

----70 psi is not too far out of reality if your baseline is 45 ish and you run 25 lbs of boost-------are we running more boost overall these days than we used to????------i have a friend that runs 25 all the time with pump gas now that he has alcohol injection----------i doubt these relatively small pumps were ever intended to run at close to 15 amps for very long------combination of high turbo boost and volt boosters could be a recipe for problems????.....................RC

This is almost exactly what my theory has been since the advent of alky injection came out. Not knocking alky injection, but boost is addictive and alky allows insane levels of boost.

My theory is this, these pumps in OEM stock form were designed to operate under 12-13 volt range on OEM fuel pump wiring, 30-40psi fuel pressure at idle, and 45-55psi under WOT. (Stock car running 12-15psi on a 233 non adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Boost level depending on ambient temps) No swet for the Walbro 340 pumps to handle.


Now, you factor in these variables:

Adjustable fuel pressure regulator which allows the end user to up the pressure to 50psi if needed on small injectors, hot wire kits and volt boosters which spike the pump with 14-14.9 volts everytime you go WOT, insane boost levels of 25-30psi brought on by alky injection and or race gas. Now you add a semi clogged OEM fuel filter to the mix and you have a recipe for a failed pump.
Especially on a car that is constantly rode hard and put up wet.
Think about the voltage and boost pressure swings when you have these conditions. You can see the swing in flow vs voltage thanks to Mr. Clark's charts.

It doesn't surprise me that Walbros are failing. What does surprise me, are cars that put the pump on and have it fail within a week of normal driving.
That tells me that something might have changed with materials and production standards. The Japanease have been dealing with these issues for years on their Forced Inducted cars. You will notice that most serious Japanease turbo cars (1000-1400hp applications) will run 2 sometimes 3 external Bosch pumps on those setups. It always amazed me why they don't simply switch over to a Weldon style pump, but I digress.

One this is for sure, this has been an excellent post, and I'd like to thank Mike Licht and Mr. Clark for all their efforts with this issue.
I think it's time we get in touch with the DSM/Evo crowd and find out which pump they are using today? Those guys run serious fuel pressure/boost ratios. I know there is a superior pump to the 340/F20000169 pump, but I can't remember the part number. What would be nice if someone developed a bolt on retrofit kit using this super pump to our cars.
I'll do some digging on my end.
Sorry this is so long winded.


Patrick