E85 & higher compression

Jeasen

New Member
Joined
May 25, 2001
I was reading another thread and someone mentioned that it would be better if we would raise the compression of a motor and make it more E85 specific. I am in the process of gathering parts for my TTA and will be setting it up to run on E85. I am going to pull the motor to look for a knock. A knock that only shows up when the motor gets to operating temperature when it is hot outside.

I am not sure what I will find with the TTA motor?

I have an idea! I have a good Turbo Buick short block. I was told that because of the difference between the TTA pistons and the Turbo Buick pistons the compression ratio using the Turbo Buick pistons and TTA heads is 9.5 to 1. If E85 works better with higher compression then why not use the Turbo Buick short block and the TTA heads?

What do the E85 gurus think of my idea? Would this be the way to go?

Jeasen
 
Raising static compression vs boost compression for us is not a great street/strip setup, for a Honda yes, I have seen 11:1 boosted but different scenario.

Keep it at 8:1 and run more boost and timing to make up the cylinder pressure max vs static compression.
 
Raising the compression a little will give the engine more snap on non
boosted situtations , ie normal driving conditions. Since E85 has less
btu's of energy then straight gas the added cylinder pressure will make
up the difference . I have always worked under the idea that the most
power you can make with the least amount of boost is the best scenario.
Making 600 hp at 23# is more impressive than 600 hp at 30#.
 
Higher Compression

Thanks Dr. Boost and V6gofast for your reply however they were 180* apart so I am right back where I started.

Anyone else have any thoughts for this question?

I tend to agree with V6gofast. It would seem to me that the Buick engineers set the compression ratio at 8 to1 because of the octane rating of pump gas available. Due to the much higher octane rating of E85 we could probably get away with running a higher compression ratio in a none boost condition. Also a higher static compression ratio would equate to more power and performance in none boost conditions such as cruising and equal better gas mileage.

I would sure like to hear some more opinions before I make up my mind on which way to go on this.

Jeasen
 
Higher Compression

I found a compression calculator that calculates the final compression ratio during in boost conditions. With a static compression ratio of 8:1 + 25#s of boost the actual compression ratio is 21.6:1 and at 30#s of boost it is 24.3:1.

With a static compression ratio of 9.5:1 + 19#s of boost the actual compression ratio is 21.8:1 and at 23#s of boost it is 24.4:1.

I am not really sure of the implications of this except that with the 9.5:1 compression ratio I would equal the 8:1 compression ratio with about 7#s less boost. I seems like I could keep a smaller turbo in the sweet spot and still make the same power as a bigger turbo and lower compression. That seems like a good thing to me.

Remember we are talking E85 fuel here.

Any comments?

Jeasen
 
well anyone that builds for the TSM classes and such, will agree that the motors are alot better running, snappier, and spool a bigger turbo better with 9:1. Its pretty common practice to build a sout LC2 with 9:1 compression nowadays, and thats for 93 octane. It really does make them alot more fun to drive, and seem to run better. Now for straight E85, i would go 9.5:1 at a minimum. Closer to 9.75:1 would be ideal and would allow you to still run pump gas if you need to. If you do decide to run E85 with 8:1 compression, you will find absolutely horrible driveability and the economy will be in the toilet.
Gary
 
you're on the right track. what is your hp goal? how much boost do you need to meet that on gas? what turbo are you running?

e.g. if you're running a gt6152, it runs optimally at 25-29#. buicks run 8.5:1 cr with this turbo (running low 11/high 10). with e85 and 25#, imo you'd be safe at 9.5:1 cr. just lower boost to eliminate kr (if any occurs). it's up to you and your goals. boost makes more hp than cr, higher cr will increase throttle response, and mpg. hth
 
Are you guys implying that boost makes less power than static compression??

I agree that spooling up a turbo sooner is a nice benefit to raising the static compression ratio, but we really don't have that problem with stroker kits, high stall converters and BB turbos.

Here is a post using text from Corky Bells Maximum Boost and Mark Warners Street Turbocharging.

Consideration #1
Heat from compression by a supercharger or turbo can be removed (for the most part) through use of an intercooler. Heat from compression within the cylinder cannot. Also, the cylinder pressure at the end of the compression stroke (prior to ignition) goes up exponentially with an increase in static compression ratio, versus a linear increase with boost pressure. Therefore, increasing the static CR is going to unavoidably push you closer to the knock limit for a given fuel. In other words, the octane requirement goes up more by increasing the static CR than it does by increasing boost.

For example, increasing the static CR from 8.5 to 9.5 increases the temperature within the cylinder at the end of the compression stroke (but before ignition) by ~63°F, (assuming IAT2 = 130°F and ideal adiabatic compression with γ = Cp/Cv = 1.4. I won’t bore anyone with equations. The situation doesn’t change much even if IAT2 were only, say, 100°F. In that case, the increase in temp at the end of the compression stroke goes up by ~60°F for the same increase in static CR). Also, the pressure at the end of the compression stroke (before ignition) goes up by ~97 psi from 574 psi to 671 psi, assuming atmospheric and boost pressures of 14.7 and 14 psi, respectively. On the other hand, increasing the boost pressure from 14 to 15 psi increases the outlet temp of the compressor by only ~11°F, assuming AE=60% and IAT1 = 90°F. And by further assuming an intercooler efficiency of 80%, the increase in IAT2 is only ~2°F. Hence, the increase in temp at the end of the compression stroke will hardly change at all. Also, the increase in cylinder pressure at the end of the compression stroke only goes up by ~18 psi (from 516 to 534 psi) with this increase in boost pressure.

So summarizing the effects of increased temp and pressure at the end of the compression stroke for the two cases:
Increased CR from 8.5 to 9.5: ΔT = ~63°F and ΔP = ~97 psi
Increased boost from 14 to 15 psi: ΔT = ~2.4°F and ΔP = ~18 psi

A higher temp and pressure increase the likelihood of deadly preignition for a given octane fuel. And for those astute observers that know the physics I’ve applied, yes, although I’ve idealized things to keep it simple, (by not including effects such as heat loss thru the cylinder walls during the compression stroke or ignition and valve timing in the calculations), I’m sure they’ll also recognize that this doesn’t change the conclusion.

Consideration #2
Power is increased by two completely different mechanisms for the two approaches. Increasing the static compression ratio increases power via an increase in thermal-conversion efficiency. Increasing boost pressure increases power via an increase in mass-air flow rate. There’s less gain in thermal-conversion efficiency (and hence power) via an increased static CR compared to the power gain by increasing the mass-air flow rate via an increase in boost pressure. For example, increasing the static CR from 8.5 to 9.5 results in an increase in thermal-conversion efficiency (for an ideal Otto cycle) of about 3.2%. On the other hand, increasing the boost pressure from just 14 psi to 15 psi, increases the mass-air flow rate by about 3.5%. If boost pressure is increased by 2 psi, (from 14 to 16 psi), the increase in mass-air flow rate will now be more than twice that compared to the increase in thermal-conversion efficiency, (~7% vs ~3.2%), and ΔT and ΔP still won’t be as great as they are when increasing the static CR from 8.5 to 9.5. Therefore, not only can it be “safer” from the knock point of view, but a little more power is gained as well, (relatively speaking that is).




Now go back to your post about compression ratios and how there is a 6 and 7psi difference to yield the same about of compression. If you want power, don't raise the static too much.
 
Higher static compression

I understand the theory about raising compression and cylinder pressure and heat when using gasoline but, we are talking E85 here. There is a cooling effect just by the nature of the alcohol fuel. Also the octane rating is much higher than straight pump gas which would allow the higher compression.

I will also have the ability to inject methanol on the top of the E85 for even better cylinder cooling.

Changing from the Turbo Trans Am shortblock to the Turbo Buick shortblock is an option I have when the motor is out of the car and it seemed like a good idea to raise the compression at this time. There really would be no cost involved to do this and I am going to set the car up to run on E85.

BTW, I am going to use a TE44 turbo. My goal would be to develop as much horsepower as possible and have the car set on kill mode at all times.

Thanks to all who responded. I find this discussion very interesting and welcome others to comment.

Jeasen
 
HTML:
I understand the theory about raising compression and cylinder pressure and heat when using gasoline but, we are talking E85 here.

E85 doesn't change the theory, it just allows you to run a higher compression ratio before knock. To use your findings, E85 at 30psi with an 8:1 comp will make more power than E85 at 23psi with a 9.5:1 comp.

And you are running a TE44 with a different comp housing than me, you shouldn't have a problem with spool up negating the need for a higher static compression ratio. Want more power, add more timing, get those heads ported and add a roller cam.
 
If the car is going to be a daily driver the higher compression will be the ticket for sure. Street/Strip car going for max power keep the compression where its at and turn the wick up.

The cooling effect is indeed a great by product of E-85, but understand that most of the cooling occurs @ WOT where the mixtures are the richest. Under normal driving the engine will have piston dome temps similar to a gasoline engine. Having said that, the cooling effect @ WOT has allowed me with a stock intercooler and stock turbo to run higher boost than I normally would be able to even with alky injection and 93 octane. The cooling effect of E-85 easily eclipses alky injection.

I can hot lap the car and run back to back to back times. :biggrin:
 
Here is a post using text from Corky Bells Maximum Boost and Mark Warners Street Turbocharging.

Dear sir, my post is not a knock against you whatsoever, and it's only just to clarify the source.

The above quoted information you posted actually came from black2003cobra (Eric S. - Professional Engineer), not from the above sources. Please see the *original* posting of such info here (May 6, 2006):

Increasing static CR vs boost pressure - ModularFords.com

You can see where this was previously hashed out on MightyForums (potentially this is where you copied the info from?):

http://forums.mightymustangs.net/index.php?showtopic=18571&mode=linear

Very Sincerely,

James
 
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