HOT AIR vs INTERCOOLED

[Squid4life]

Well, as a brand new 85 GN owner I have a few q's. First let me say I have read just about every thread on this website, and am amazed with all the info and cooperation between users on this site. I can see this site is going to help me quite a bit!

Now the question. I am trying to figure out which road to take when it comes to 1.) staying with the 85 style non-intercooled guts, 2.) swapping to stock 87 guts, or 3.) going with aftermarket guts all together. By guts I mean intake, headers, ECM, etc. I was told I should get rid of the 85 manifolds, etc, and basically turn the 85 engine bay to 87. But I also checked into getting an aftermarket IC for the 85, but have heard mixed stories with that. I have also noticed some of the guys on the hot air section have run some impressive numbers with no IC. I have already decided on the basics like fuel pump, adj reg, hot wire, adj wastegate rod, 160 stat, etc. Then will move on to up/down pipes, big mouth cold air, etc.

I just don't want to start down one path, get $5k or more into it, and have to start back over to get more gains. Although, I guess that is what car building is all about, huh!?

I have looked at the other site with the recipes, all of you guys sigs with car info, etc and just trying to get a good start towards a driver that can get in the low 12's without having to mortgage the house.

Let me know what you think, any guidance from the pros would be greatly appreciated!

James Combs

 

[typhoon]

I am a bit partial but I think the intake conversion I am working on for us will be the best of both worlds.

I am sure if you read through enough, you have found it. Is going on 20 pages or so of delays due to my goofy car.

I do have new motor on way to go into car in 2 weeks, maybe a heart transplant will get rid of all the demons.

 

[fullahotair]

The other thing to consider is "how" you want to get to being fast. Personally I enjoy the challenge of making a hot air go fast, becuase you don't always see a really fast hot-air. There are tons of people going to the 86/87 route, which makes going fast easier and yeah a little more inexepensive and easier.

The hot air's are the underdog, which makes it all the better when you beat up on an IC car. There are other options other than an intercooler as well such as spraying alky or the aftermarket intake that Typhoon speaks of. Its different than the 86/87 cars, which in my mind that in itself makes it better. If Typhoon's manifold setup outperforms the IC's manifold, then ultimately it wouldn't make sense to go through the hassles of the 86/87 setup conversion, unless you wanted the stock look. If i was going to IC setup, i would go to the typhoon setup, cuz it is different/unique.

I like the 86/87 engines, but i would rather own a hot air, and put an 86/87 engine into another car...like a Studebaker Avanti!!...- - for the pure reason it isn't something you see everyday...

Alright enough babbling from me, my point in summary is, you should also weight how you want to attain your performance goals, whether it is based purely on monetary costs (which unfortunely is the driving force for 90% of us) or what have you...some are determined to stay the hot air route and some go though 86/87 route...its all in how YOU want to do it...you'll get advocates for both routes, but ultimately its how YOU want to do it..

 

[racemybuick]

I love this question...my personal favorite two years ago...
I am a hot air diehard. I plan on running low into the 11's with no IC. If I wanted an IC, i would have bought a workable lc2 motor to begin with, or an 86-87 turbo regal...Not the 84 I have now.

If you want the quickest bang for the buck, go IC, and get some quick performance mods like pipes/headers/pump and crank up the boost. If you want to just run 13's possibly 12's, keep the Hot Air nostalgia, and go for the challenge...It all equals out to how much and how fast.
For $5000, plus cost of car, you can have a 12 sec hot air...
For $5500, you can have a stock, ok body 86-87 intercooled car, and that will prolly run 14's or 15's....another $2000 or $3000, and you will have that 12 sec car, if not faster...How much and how fast are all that matter when it comes to making these babies perform.

The intake that Typhoon has designed and is testing, is like the LC2 motor, only your turbo remains in place, and interchangability is heightened to infinate possibilities. If you find a turbomotion v2 intake, good luck, then you can have an IC car for $2000 or around that. I want 11 seconds. I have about 2000 into the motor now, and it is no where near ready...especially since it is not even in the car yet.

Porting is mandatory in any turbo car going under 13secs...intake and heads...Exhaust and fuel should be the priorities, though. Your mods you have chosen already are very practical, and will definatley put you on the right track, however, make sure a scantool, and tons of gauges are at hand, so you dont miss a beat under the hood...GOOD LUCK!!!! Welcome to the Hot Air Club!

John

 

[Drac0nic]

yeah, you've definitely got the right idea for a hot air RaceMyBuick, high flow lower boost, or alky. Quite honestly, i've got an engine from an 85, I'm working on it slowly albeit but surely, and it should be a piece of work when I'm done (hopefully) I've got a Syclone water to air upper intercooler that's going on it, maybe an alky kit eventually but propane for now, lightly ported heads when I get there, probably a knockoff of Typhoon's intake provided I don't get the real deal of course (I've dabbled in sand casting, must try my hand at making something first =) as well as more camshaft. Still not sure about the headers, the ones I've got are in good shape so I may not go to the expense unless I need to make stuff fit. One of the reasons I chose the water to air is because I'm gonna try to cram it into an Astro van, I'm working on the electrical right now but I think it'll be fairly easy wiring in any TBI van.

 

[typhoon]

Originally posted by Drac0nic
I've got a Syclone water to air upper intercooler that's going on it

Obviously I am into the syty's, actually more so than buicks.

I have found the stock syty intercooler to be very restrictive actually and had good success removing one and installing alky in it's place on a buddies syclone.

If I was going to intercool, not sure I would pick "that" core.

Plus it has oval outlet making it more difficult to adapt.

I myself an doing the intake conversion, but no intercooler just alky.

Still be hot air in a sense. The nice thing is intercooler will be easy to add later if needed.

After looking deeply into the hotair intakes, I am not impressed with them and feel they are a big reason the hot airs run slower in general, more so than the intercooler. Of course still theory i have been trying to test for ~6months or more now.

Jeff

 

[Drac0nic]

I'd believe the intake theory for sure, the design is awful for performance. I'll confess that on the Syty intercooler it's not the outlet I dislike, it's the inlet. If you cut that outlet offand put in a bung for a line bigger then the 1.X inch it'd probably flow better. I presume you're posting alky project results in the Sy/Ty forum, I'll keep an eye out Part of it is that air to air's a space concern on my project, and I may throw alky on top of it as well. I'll say I love the Sy/Tys, I just don't think as a college kid on a semblance of a budget they're the way to go for power, since you need a lot of 4.3L bottom end parts to even think about really turboing one a great deal, and unless you've got the rare Sy/Ty intake your fueling's definitely a liability with the 262. i've just gotta be sure I do a good quality basic rebuild and use the stock bottom end and the likes. I'd rather have a stock hot air intake any day then a stock non Sy/Ty intake for a 4.3L, especially one of those "spider" based ones. It's a shame that they didn't make a large production vehicle with the intake like the Syclone'st, it would have been awesome.

 

[typhoon]

Not to get too far off topic here but.

No the hotair conversion isn't posted much on syty land. I can't tell all my secrets can I??

The truck itself was running 12.4's consistant with stock turbo and intercooler.

Switching to hot air netted very similar times, but with a tranny that couldn't handle power anymore. (113k on truck, motor, trans, etc with probably 2-300 1/4mile passes or more.)

Right now owner is middle of moving, and has since switched turbos, but tranny needs to be gone through.

With new turbo will be 11's, but his is loving the hotair and the added alky it needed.

I will mention this though, when we removed the stock intake, the boost was up ~4psi over what it was before. Had to be the restriction. Once alky was added to compensate he had similar IAT's, but much more responsive boost.

Intercoolers are great for street driving, not sure they perform the best for drag racing yet.

With that said I still think the hotairs suffer slower times due to intake mostly, not the intercooler. I don't see hot air guys putting spearco intercoolers on and running similar times to 86/87 buicks or even close. WHY?

We shall see soon if my intake does the trick being on flow bench it out performed stock 86 some.

 

[Squid4life]

Thanks for all the replies. I haven't had a chance to reply as early or as much as I would like to. I am in the Navy, so time on the 'puter is hit and miss.

I have read a lot about the poor intake design and it looks like everyone agrees on this. I'm keeping an eye out for a spare engine, heads, intake, etc so I can start porting, etc. I used to work in a machine shop and have done lots of port work on my own junk so that is not an issue. I just don't want to pull the motor and work on it, would rather have a spare on the side to mess with in my infinite spare time. What should a guy look for when it comes to good cores. Are the turbo blocks and heads different from the non-turbo?

I am still undecided on whether or not to convert to 87 stuff, the main reason I would is to go faster, cheaper. The wife only gives me so much allowance!

Will most likely not dive too deep into headers, IC, or any big ticket items and will just stay with fuel sys, puter/chip, cold air intake, scan tool, etc until I do a little more research, and maybe by then the intake from the cyclone guru will be available.

Gotta run, will reply more asap.

 

[Wagondraggin]

if you want to run 12's which is not hard .. you need 4 things to do it cheaply..

1. ported heads and manifold (do it your self lots of info on how on this site.

2. bigger exhaust all the way around i run 3 inch.. if you want to do it on the cheap.. run a dump pipe.

3. alcohol injection use the progressive system viper i think it is. or make your own (lots of info on the turbo regal site). this lets you run more boost on less octane. there is someone who did a study on incoming air temps from a hot air car running alcohol and one running a stock ic and the alcohol car had a cooler charge in most cases.

4. nitrous. there are allot of people who do not like it but i for one love it and will use it on my new project also. i ran a 100 hp wet shot with no problems for 6 yrs on stock internals. i would have ran a 150 shot but i couldn't keep traction. i know someone who is using a 200 shot on stock internals.

you should be in the mid to upper 12's if you do this.. also anything else you do to the car is a bonus.

my hot air powered volvo ran 12.92 @109mph with a stock engine 3" exhaust 16 lbs boost 100 shot nitrous. crappy 14 " street tires and a non posi rear end. and i have the time slips to prove it..

 

[xxninja]

people can always sit and complain about how much it costs to get a hotair car to run fast

but i know this......
JUst yesterday i seen a grand national for sale for 10 grand, it was a heaping pile of junk to me, bad paint, rusty rims , rust, lousy interior, and no mods to it......

i paid 6 grand for my 85 GN and my car is flawless on the outside and the interior looks new .

If my car was a 85-87 of the name nature,
id easily pay 15 grand + for it...

Its always nice to have something different, i always found the cars i didnt see alot to be more interesting..
Most people dont even know a hot air Gn even exists.


Id buy another car before i totally swapped everything out

 

[Mr.Buick]

Hot air?

It looks like you have had everyone's opinion so here is my 2 cents. The one thing you will probably want to change is to convert the ECU to 86/87 because it will be give you more options for monitoring and performance. The fuel pump and adjustable regulator will need to be up graded on any turbo car. The turbo is a little small and you will probably want to up grade it as well. The ignition module is expensive and hard to find so you will most lightly want to convert to 86/87 much cheaper. Unless you are planing on running 11's the stock headers, up-pipe and down pipe will get you a solid 12 second car. A Hooker exhaust system is reasonably priced and is a great bang for the buck. Put on a catalytic eliminator pipe so you can run race gas. Get two performance chips, one for street and one for race. Crank up the boost with good slick type tires and you should get into the low 13, high 12 second area. Remember to get cold air into the engine with a K&N set up and ducting to the air dam under the front bumper. You will need a knock gauge and some way to monitor the engine or you may find a quick road to the engine rebuilders. SMC makes a great alcohol injection set up for the street when you want to turn up the boost and cheaper than race gas. On the dragstrip there is no substitute for good race gas it will always produce more power than alcohol. Have fun

 

[Squid4life]

Well, I have had a heck of a time getting the site to accept my reply postings, so hopefully it'll work this time.

After doing a little more research, and reading hours and hours on this site, I have made some decisions. First off, I finally went and picked the car up in Ohio. (16 hrs 1 way!) I was pleasantly surprised to find other than being in great shape inside and out it had the following:
Adj FP reg
Aftermarket exhaust
Cold air w/ k&n
H20 & oil press gauges in a pillar pods
I think a better down pipe
MSD wires
Adj wastegate
And a few other mods I can't think of right now.

>>First I need to get a fuel press gauge for the fuel rail. The regulator lock nut was loose so who knows what the pressure is set at.
>>I already got the 160 stat to put in, good plugs and fuel filter,
>>Thinking about big filter adapter and synthetic oil, any thoughts?????
>>Need to get a boost gg and knock gg for the A pillar pods, get different H20/oil press mounted elsewhere
>>Need to get a scan tool. Which one will work for 85 computer, and also when/if I convert to 87?
>>Need to see if he replaced the pump with a walbro, how can I tell, just pull it?
>>How can I tell if the pump has been hot wired?
>>Also will get two chips as mentioned above
>>Will upgrade turbo in the next year or so, along with converter and injectors.

Thanks for all the suggestions and help. I can't wait to get it running right, is a little rough since it has sat. The guy was a collector of about 56 cars, all that sat in a showroom. Hopefully a tuneup will help.

Any other suggestions please let me know!

James

 

[Gn-ing]

Originally posted by Squid4life
Well, as a brand new 85 GN owner I have a few q's. First let me say I have read just about every thread on this website, and am amazed with all the info and cooperation between users on this site. I can see this site is going to help me quite a bit!

Now the question. I am trying to figure out which road to take when it comes to 1.) staying with the 85 style non-intercooled guts, 2.) swapping to stock 87 guts, or 3.) going with aftermarket guts all together. By guts I mean intake, headers, ECM, etc. I was told I should get rid of the 85 manifolds, etc, and basically turn the 85 engine bay to 87. But I also checked into getting an aftermarket IC for the 85, but have heard mixed stories with that. I have also noticed some of the guys on the hot air section have run some impressive numbers with no IC. I have already decided on the basics like fuel pump, adj reg, hot wire, adj wastegate rod, 160 stat, etc. Then will move on to up/down pipes, big mouth cold air, etc.

I just don't want to start down one path, get $5k or more into it, and have to start back over to get more gains. Although, I guess that is what car building is all about, huh!?

I have looked at the other site with the recipes, all of you guys sigs with car info, etc and just trying to get a good start towards a driver that can get in the low 12's without having to mortgage the house.

Let me know what you think, any guidance from the pros would be greatly appreciated!

James Combs

There are cheap T types out there with good drivetrains for 86-87 conversions...Ck E bay regularly..you can pic up a rusty car complete and running in the $3000 range.....I don't have a hot air,but they look almost like a 86-87,so why not make it run like one....My 87 with 70k,ran 13.7 stock,with a chip and ajustable waste gate,13.0's,then with blue tops and hooker exhaust,12:80.....investment about 700 bucks...now i'm almost 11's with THDP and 009's//

 

[turbowrenchhead]

Cooler air = more power. Thats how I see it. I don't care how I make the power. Everyone that see's under my hood says something like " I never seen anything like that!". I think having an intercooled hot-air car has no drawbacks. I like the setup I have now. It took alot of extra work and the problems that I had on top of it but I have a one of a kind.
When I gather up some more $$ I am going to finish my i/c CO2 sprayer. I have the sprayer built and have the hobbs switch for it, just need the valve and the lines and tank. It has to be good for at least 50 hp. And CO2 is cheap.