Joe R, Bryan, Neil, and anyone else in KC area or anyone...need opinion on cam...

[FJM568]

Found out that my #3 exh lobe has decided it would rather be round than have a bump on it...This cam was a Modern Musclecar 208/208 flat tappet...Need some opinions on a replacement...

Setup is as follows...TA51 turbo w/PTE exh housing, 50# injs, Joe L street and race chips, TH 3" DP, 8445 heads that have been CNC machined to flow better, no exh crossover or egr provisions at all in the heads(solid), CAS V2 FM IC, 2800 stall Neil Chance 12" LU converter, Walbro 307 with an adj. fpr, steel center mains, +.030 TRW forged pistons, 109 block, and probably some other stuff that I'm forgetting...This is the motor that is in my 85 GN...The turbo is in the stock 85 location, with the custom TH DP, and an 87 lower intake with my own design custom upper plenum to make it work...I got 13k miles out of it, but lost the lobe back in Nov??? Dyno'd in mid Sept at 330 hp and 440 ft/lbs with the lobe probably already half gone on 16-17# of boost on 92 oct pump gas...

Any suggestions on what cam to go with...can't be a billet roller, can't afford it right now...BUT I ONLY WANT TO DO THIS ONCE!!!! I may end up going with a bigger turbo and higher stall converter later, so keep that in mind, too...

Anyone have any experience with the GS club cams??? They claim NO wiped cams ever...

Suggestions or questions are welcome...

Thanks...

 

[8UWITH6]

My GN has Comp Cams 206/206........nice cam, woke up 2nd and 3rd gear quite a bit. HTH

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

your going to lose a cam lobe again
seems that some blocks are just junk

buy a 212 212 or larger cam and dont overrev the motor-
you might as well get the club cam, and when it goes south, you win the prize of being the first to flatten a club cam-

the gn i put together had a 210 205 cam with the stock turbo and convertor and had better spool up than i thougt it would have

dont worry about getting a BIG cam-- my 4.1 car has a 220/220 cam in it, and you can barely notice that it is such a large cam.... till ya floor it!

http://secure.johnsperformance.com/...368372.656*Gx05d&next=10&product=Engine-Parts

its only a 208 208 but i wish it had more lift in it-
i think atr sells the same duration cam, but has more lift to it--
that is what i would look for-- a medium to high duration cam with alot of lift possible-- just as long as you dont get coil bind

 

[FJM568]

Yeah, first to flatten a club cam...But they would probably say that it was something I did and not count it... LOL

I think that I still have the original cam that I pulled out of the motor...It started out as a NA motor out of an 86 Pontiac GP...I don't remember seeing anything wrong with it...I'll have to look at it again tomorrow...But I don't think that it will matter...The NA motors didn't run the higher spring pressures that we have to with the turbo'd motors...I do remember having problems getting the motor to fire the first time...I had a bad crank sensor...It may have been doomed from the start...I hope that was all it was...I'd hate to have to do this once a year...Heheh, may have to design some type of "quick cam change" doohickey to make this easier to do...

According to the GSX-Tra, they grind a little more taper on the #3 exh lobe to "induce lifter spin"...Well, it sounds good anyway...I may just give it a try...Oh well...can only lose another lobe, right???

Thanks, and keep the suggestions coming...

 

[Scott231]

Originally posted by FJM568
Found out that my #3 exh lobe has decided it would rather be round than have a bump on it...This cam was a Modern Musclecar 208/208 flat tappet...Need some opinions on a replacement...

Setup is as follows...TA51 turbo w/PTE exh housing, 50# injs<snip>

Any suggestions on what cam to go with...can't be a billet roller, can't afford it right now...BUT I ONLY WANT TO DO THIS ONCE!!!! I may end up going with a bigger turbo and higher stall converter later, so keep that in mind, too...

Jim, your injectors are the limiting factor. You should go no larger than a 218/218, and I wouldn't recommend that one to go with 50s (many people have done it...including Reif) but those are the smallest injectors you can run with a 218/218. I'd suggest the 210/205 or a 212/212 if the injectors stay the same. The single biggest problem with wiped lobes is the break-in process and the lifters. If you are definately going to the bigger turbo and covnerter, you'll need bigger injectors - depending on turbo size.

 

[FJM568]

Well, depending on how this whole thing with the -51 turbo's shakes out(if it's just isolated and an unlucky few are getting all the bad ones), I may go with a bit larger turbo in the future...gotta take a real close look at mine now with the failures popping up now...

Where would I be able to pick up the 210/205 cam that you mentioned??? Which vendor and/or is there a specific special order cam number that I would need to call the cam company and tell them that particular number???

QuickWrench in Ravenna, OH mentioned in my other thread the "classic" Lunati 200/200...How about that one???

Or Alan Roehrich suggested that I have a custom cam ground for my setup...He recommended Crower, Isky, or a Reed cam??? Any feedback on those???

Thanks...Just trying to get some info from people that know or have way more turbo V6 motor build experience than I do(which in my case is very little, I know just enough to be dangerous )

 

[Scott231]

The GSCA sells a popular 210/205. Any of the major turbo Buick vendors can get you any cam you want. Check with Jack Cotton, Lawrence Conley, Harry Hruska.....

The 200/200 is such a small upgrade from stock, it isn't worth it as far as upgrades go. I see no need for a custom grind when the turbo buick vendors all have access to ready-made turbo buick cams that have been proven to work for years.

 

[FJM568]

Thanks for the info, Scott...

I don't know if you have even checked into my other post in the tech section, http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=35061 , but Alan also suggested possibly using the Crower camsaver lifters(they have a flat one one side to bleed off a little oil to the cam lobes...Then lazaris jumped in and mentioned a mod that Crower does, which is drill a bleed hole in the face of the lifter to supply pressurized oil to the cam lobe...

Do you have any experience or opinions on those??? I hate to keep dragging this subject out, but would like to cover all my bases before I jump in and do anything...Would really hate for this to turn into having to swap cams as many times as you've had to pull your tranny!!!

Thanks for any info...

 

[Scott231]

I've never heard of any using those fancy Crower lifters in a turbo buick motor, yet there there are in the Crower catalog. $74 for a set of 12. Johnson lifters are under $40 a set.

Drilling holes in lifters...how do you keep them from getting plugged up with gunk?

Sounds to me like you lost a lifter due to an unfortunate poor cam break-in. Accordingly, it doesn't seem likely that you have a poorly machined block (this is the first cam you've wiped correct?) which is the main mechanically specific problem I'm aware of, poor lifters being the other, that can take out a cam.

So why do you need to get fancy?

 

[FJM568]

Okay...Thanks Scott...Sometimes the tendencies are to get fancy...I think I will just keep it simple and call up Jack C and get another cam...

I think that I got the lifters from MM along with the cam that I wiped...I guess I'll find out on the new cam whether it was just a wiped lobe from cranking the motor for too long trying to troubleshoot it to get it to start or if it really is a problem with the block and will end up wiping lobes no matter what flat tappet cam I put in there...

Talk to ya later and thanks for the advice...I appreciate it...

 

[FJM568]

Well, I decided to go with the Comp 206/206 that Jack Cotton sells...I guess I'll find out if it'll wipe again...As Jack said, It's a crap shoot with any of them...

Thanks for the advice...

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

too small for your combo IMO
why not try another 212 212 if you were happy with the one you just had??? just brake it in with weaker springs?
later

 

[FJM568]

Well, the way I looked at it was that there are plenty of people going fast with the stock cam(you're one of em ), that the cam really isn't that *particular* of a piece of the go-fast puzzle...Plus, alot of guys are running them(206/206) w/o very many problems...I'm not really too worried about it...Looking at the cam specs for the two cams(Comp 206/206 and the MM208/208) the Comp cam has a little more lift(Comp .469/MM .448) and more adv duration @ 268* seat-to-seat(compared to the MM @ 264* seat-to-seat) but the Comp cam has less dur @ .050 = 206* (compared to MM = 208*)...Really not a whole lot of differences between them...just minor...

Hell, who knows, I may just see if the stock cam in the 87 T motor(2 melted pistons) is still in good shape...Maybe just put that one back in...

 

[turbov6joe]

Jim,
I love my 218-218, but I also think my dad's 206-206 is one smooth pull'n stick. The 212-212 we had in his old motor was not very impressive IMO, so we pulled back a few sizes and went to the Comp Cams 206-206. Your combo is much like his, I think you'll be happy with your choice. It's better to be on the smaller size than over-cam our motors as you well know I'm sure. Bryan's 220-220 is really smooth, much more than one might think. Too bad the lobes are prolly round (just kidd'n B). Sorry I chimed in so late, I rarely look at this forum for some reason??? Are you going to BG this year? I just got my motor back together and running yesterday. Thank God above it wasn't worse than a blown cylinder #6 fire ring!

 

[turbov6joe]

BTW Jim,
In reference to Scott's remark about 50's and the 218-218. I run mine static and being pounded by the drivers, as well as having that SX pump supplying PLENTY of fuel thier way. I could use larger injectors, yes, but I do love the drivability of the MSD 50's and how linier they are.

 

[FJM568]

I may go to BG, but it will be a last minute deal again...It depends when I get my recall notice to go back to work...If I don't get recalled by then, then I probably will go, maybe leave here Weds or Thurs and stay til Sunday...But if I get recalled, I won't have any vacation time and won't know what my shift or days off schedule is like, so that means no BG for me...

As for the 220/220 in Bryan's car...Phil V also found out that the bigger cam works better in the 4.1L than it does in the 3.8L...I think the 206/206 should work out fine, regardless on if I do step up to a bigger turbo later...

Sounds like you need the FAST setup w/72#ers

Hopefully, I'll have the 87T running by BG...My spare motor is with the machinist right now getting freshened up...should be a few weeks until I get it back and assemble it...

Now to do the cam change on the 85 GN... <sigh>

Talk to ya later...Save me a spot on the floor in case I'll be able to go this year...