Original SBC verses LS style engine

[turbo6man]

OK, I see ALOT of people building LS motors on here instead of the older style small block chevy's, but I am wondering why? So I would like to ask these two scenario's:
First scenario: You had a stock LQ4 motor which was installed in a GN with a turbo and adequate fuel system and tune

Second scenario: You take the same turbo and fuel system and put it on an used SBC with same boost as scenario one

Conclusion questions:
1) does the LS flow way more and therefore make more horsepower than the old style SBC. If that is the case what would it take to make the same power out of an old style SBC

2) Is the LS much stronger and will handle much more abuse due to the way the mains are tied to block or the internal strength of the rods/crank/valvetrain/head gasket clamping or sealing

I know there has to be a reason why you all are going this route but I just do not know why

 

[Louie L.]

Most LS swaps you are seeing are mostly stock style builds. These motors are very cheap and will make lots of power. Knowing what I know now, I would go LS.

The largest advantage to the LS motor is the head design. Sure the crossbolted mains are nice but there are limitations depending on what power level you are looking to attain on the block. In stock and bolt on form they are very impressive.

With that said , a motor for example like mine will make comparable power to a LS design motor using a comparable flow head. The head is where is at.Thats my .02.

 

[daverr]

i think the reason u see more LSx motor is because they are a dime a dozen in the junkyards. With a LSx motor u get what u paid for plus bigger coolant bottle .

 

[KWIKR 1]

from what I have been able to gather , if your considering building up a LS type engine up it will cost you a few dollars more as well vs "old style" SBC to achieve aprox the same hp levels . aftermarket performance LS Parts have a little higher "premium" IMO .

 

[bammax]

Once you have the engine and it's wiring/computer you'll see that the Gen3's make more power stock and have the ability to make more power once you start modding them. The Gen1 engine was limited by the head design which was solved with the Gen2 engines. The Gen2's are basically crap engines thanks to some of the other tech items they used in those motors, so stay away from them unless you just want a cheap upgrade from a 305 or tbi motor. The head design on them was so good though that GM kept the heads alive (although with conventional cooling and different intake bolt pattern) in the Gen3 Vortec engines used in the trucks.

Starting from scratch with nothing but money the Gen1 is the cheapest and easiest to deal with. The Gen2 will outperform it to a point, but once you hit 500 horses at the crank the Gen2 is no longer a real option due to reliability issues. The Gen3 will outperform them both and upgrades don't cost much more than the same upgrades for a Gen1. The problem with the Gen3's is they are expensive to get into and everything you do with them requires reprogramming the pcm.

 

[daverr]

Starting from scratch with nothing but money the Gen1 is the cheapest and easiest to deal with. The Gen2 will outperform it to a point, but once you hit 500 horses at the crank the Gen2 is no longer a real option due to reliability issues. The Gen3 will outperform them both and upgrades don't cost much more than the same upgrades for a Gen1. The problem with the Gen3's is they are expensive to get into and everything you do with them requires reprogramming the pcm.

Gen1 are still capable of running with the Gen3 no problem.

 

[Louie L.]

Gen1 are still capable of running with the Gen3 no problem.

Absolutely.

But when comparing going fast using stock, or even mildly modded Gen 1 vs a stock Gen 3, the latter wins by far. The perfomance that can be attained from turbo charging a stock 5.3, 5.7 and 6.0 is amazing. Just my .02

 

[BetMinesFaster]

100K mile 450$ Salvage yard 6.0 LQ4, lightly decked ZO6 243 heads with 13K miles ($400.00) Texas speed V3 cam with PRC dual springs ($550.00) headers and tune with a stock truck intake makes 500 Horse NA, or 625 on spray. And the 6.0's just dont fail, they are stout. Run it to 6800 and itll stay together. Small cost and nice daily driver power. My 02 cents. Cam change and 317 heads to drop the compression, add some boost and itll rip:biggrin:

 

[1chance]

Just scored a 6.0 LQ4 from salvage yard, i got the complete engine, and PCM. Now i need info on how to install it in my 81TTA? I saw some one post a book you can buy from some where to install it, anyone got a link? I have wire harness to, but it looks difficult. Want to add turbo later, but for now i just want to get it in and drive!

 

[daverr]

100K mile 450$ Salvage yard 6.0 LQ4, lightly decked ZO6 243 heads with 13K miles ($400.00) Texas speed V3 cam with PRC dual springs ($550.00) headers and tune with a stock truck intake makes 500 Horse NA, or 625 on spray. And the 6.0's just dont fail, they are stout. Run it to 6800 and itll stay together. Small cost and nice daily driver power. My 02 cents. Cam change and 317 heads to drop the compression, add some boost and itll rip:biggrin:

no rebuild??no stronger rods or crank?? u like running on borrowed time??
It`s doesnt make any sense to take a 100k mile or even a 50k mile engine and double or triple its horsepower and expect it live. When u buy junk u get junk thats my 2 cents.

 

[BetMinesFaster]

no rebuild??no stronger rods or crank?? u like running on borrowed time??
It`s doesnt make any sense to take a 100k mile or even a 50k mile engine and double or triple its horsepower and expect it live. When u buy junk u get junk thats my 2 cents.

Dave, How much do you know about LS based engines? In stock form these things are strong. I can buy 6+ whole used stockers for the cost of a rebuild with upgraded crank and rods and good pistons. For a big boost motor I would work on internals, for a NA or spray motor ill happily flog the balls outta my 500 dollar Salvage yard engine, in the rare chance it fails ill swap the cam, intake and heads onto another 100K LQ4 6.0 and flog the balls outta that one too. These things are strong. I doubt that my logic will be argued by many with the small cost of these engines and their far better than stellar track record. Take in mind im not talking about race car, this is my daily driver combo, I would not build a big dollar rotating assembly for a daily driver. Gm hit the nail on the head with these things. Thats my .02 more cents

 

[BetMinesFaster]

Sorry for the thread pollution Turbo6man!!!:biggrin:

 

[daverr]

Dave, How much do you know about LS based engines? Take in mind im not talking about race car, this is my daily driver combo, I would not build a big dollar rotating assembly for a daily driver. Gm hit the nail on the head with these things. Thats my .02 more cents

An LS engine is basically a sbc(pushrod). While other auto manufacturies moved on to OHC , vvt and vtec .GM still use pushrod engines. BMW M5 makes 500hp with 305 CI NA engine while the Z06 needs 427 CI to make the same power.So no GM did not hit the nail on the head with LS engine.GM is turning into Harley Davidson ,build the same thing year after year,decade after decade. thats my 2 cents.

 

[rtviper]

An LS engine is basically a sbc(pushrod). While other auto manufacturies moved on to OHC , vvt and vtec .GM still use pushrod engines. BMW M5 makes 500hp with 305 CI NA engine while the Z06 needs 427 CI to make the same power.So no GM did not hit the nail on the head with LS engine.GM is turning into Harley Davidson ,build the same thing year after year,decade after decade. thats my 2 cents.

First off GM doesn't need 427 cubes to make 500 HP, they just do it because its a motor that will make lots of power with little effort and a simple engine. 11 to 1 compression 16 valves and 475 ft lbs tq.
This same engine could make 700 if they cared to.
BMW uses a v10 with 12 to 1 compression 40 valves to get 500 hp and only 375 ft lbs torque. Torque is the big winner here.

At the track a motor that makes that makes 475 lbs tq and only needs 7k rpm will run forever vs a motor making 375 lbs tq at 8k rpm.
They used to say same thing about vipers v10, needing 488 cubes to make 450hp and about 500 lbs tq.
Viper would run forever at 6k rpm and win race after race without losing a motor, and with just tuning make 750hp. They dont need that many cubes it's just more economical and it wins long races easier.

 

[it's just a six]

The stock rods & pistons should be replaced when boosting,they cannot tolerate any detonation when boosting.

LS heads flow alot more.

Stock CNC ported LS7 ZO6 heads flow 370 cfm. My friends cylinder head shop gets them to flow close to 400 CFM. http://www.proheads.com/WCCH LS7.html

The L92 heads are awesome also. http://www.proheads.com/WCCH L92.html

When you want to make a lot of power ,go w/the cast iron 6.0 block.

Now there are aftermarket blocks,so you can stroke them even more.

 

[BetMinesFaster]

Well said! One has to compare reliability as well as horsepower and torque numbers. Fords mod ohc engined don't make impressive power and really are not reliable on the newer 3 valve stuff, older stuff didn't like keeping spark plugs in. The dodge ohc 4.7 sucks with unreliable head gaskets and no power and the hemi is a joke, makes just moderate power at high rpm.the newer 6.o in the escelade and denali uses VVT and makes great power and the new 6.2 makes 400 reliable horses with a laim factory tune and tons of smog control. And agreed that comparing a Zo6 to an M5 is like comparing apples to oranges, the M5's do make power but using totally different overpriced technology.ever seen a repair bill on a bimer, specially underhood ones? Sweet car, hell yes. But I'd run the LS powered ZO6 in a heartbeat, its a well engineered bada!? Car and with a few bolt ons and a tune will scream and do it reliably.....

 

[ranger66]

Well said, now somebody help me find a $400 LQ9 so that I can get started down this path! I have looked on the pull-a-part website for cars and trucks that had factory 6.0's but no luck. HELP!!!!!!!!

 

[BetMinesFaster]

Well said, now somebody help me find a $400 LQ9 so that I can get started down this path! I have looked on the pull-a-part website for cars and trucks that had factory 6.0's but no luck. HELP!!!!!!!!

Truck 6.0's only, Iron blocks are strong. car-part.com You will find plenty.

 

[turbo6man]

Thanks to everyone for the reply's this is exactly what I was hoping would happen with this post so please keep the comments rolling.......

 

[daverr]

First off GM doesn't need 427 cubes to make 500 HP, they just do it because its a motor that will make lots of power with little effort and a simple engine. 11 to 1 compression 16 valves and 475 ft lbs tq.
This same engine could make 700 if they cared to.
BMW uses a v10 with 12 to 1 compression 40 valves to get 500 hp and only 375 ft lbs torque. Torque is the big winner here.

.

GM needs 427ci to make a 500 hp reliable enough for a production vehicle.IF they could make the power with a smaller engine they would of by now .it would boost the mpg. Gm could make more power with the 427 for example the ZR1 ,but they needed a supercharger to do it. Lastly BMW gear their cars accordingly.

Truck 6.0's only, Iron blocks are strong. car-part.com You will find plenty.

My suggestion to you is keep your engine hoist well maintained.
This get something for nothing mentality will get u know where fast.

A ground up build of a Gen1 or Gen3 will cost the same or close to it.No matter how aggressive the LS marketing is ,to the point of have a LSx only event. The SBC is not going away anytime soon.

LS heads flow alot more.

Stock CNC ported LS7 ZO6 heads flow 370 cfm. My friends cylinder head shop gets them to flow close to 400 CFM. http://www.proheads.com/WCCH LS7.html

The L92 heads are awesome also. http://www.proheads.com/WCCH L92.html

Surely u dont mean LS heads flow more than sbc???

400 cfm from a LS cylinderhead is not bad, but a bit late since sbc cylinderheads flowed that much a long time ago.