SteveBranger
New Member
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2014
With intent to keep the TSA class as SA as we can, I propose no changes to the 2014 rules.
TSA rules discussion
- Thread starter Thumper
- Start date
wantattype2
Member
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2010
I just want to state that the rule changes I have proposed were not intended to deviate from the stock appearing" theme "of the class . When the rules were proposed it was stated that it would be a new entry level class and not a replacement of R.C. TSA class, with the first priority being increased participation.
My thoughts behind each proposed change are ,
Safety, allowing the use of Rear aftermarket NON adjustable control arms, I don't believe the stock stamped arms were intended to take the abuse they are seeing. 2nd allowing the use of two console mounted gauges would allow for monitoring oil press, water temp, ect something that the stock dash is diffident of.
The use of aftermarket exhaust headers would allow new racers to use something commercially available without having to find suitable stock headers and then port & repair them.
The valve cover spacers would allow for use aftermarket rocker arms to increase the reliability and decrease matainance .
The stock downpipe puts everyone one on a level playing field , as no one makes a commercially available replacement 2.5 in downpipe.
I believe a byproduct of the changes would possibly open the door to the aftermarket suppliers and maybe increase sponsorships .
I think the changes could be made without deviating from the stock appearing theme, and believe it would go unnoticed by most.
My thoughts behind each proposed change are ,
Safety, allowing the use of Rear aftermarket NON adjustable control arms, I don't believe the stock stamped arms were intended to take the abuse they are seeing. 2nd allowing the use of two console mounted gauges would allow for monitoring oil press, water temp, ect something that the stock dash is diffident of.
The use of aftermarket exhaust headers would allow new racers to use something commercially available without having to find suitable stock headers and then port & repair them.
The valve cover spacers would allow for use aftermarket rocker arms to increase the reliability and decrease matainance .
The stock downpipe puts everyone one on a level playing field , as no one makes a commercially available replacement 2.5 in downpipe.
I believe a byproduct of the changes would possibly open the door to the aftermarket suppliers and maybe increase sponsorships .
I think the changes could be made without deviating from the stock appearing theme, and believe it would go unnoticed by most.
wantattype2
Member
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2010
I propose a change in the rules to continue the use of a laptop and wideband for Qualifying passes, as voted on at the 2014 GS Nationals.
Thumper
Active Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
We may also need to cover the spare tire and jack. In reviewing the rules I think it should be optional to remove them for racing, and weight savings . Or do we make it where it must be mounted in stock location at all times like a true stock car?
Dale, in writing rules for the gauge pod, how can we do a bench seat car with no center console. I like the idea of gauges to monitor, but I am at a loss for the wording. Any ideas?
Time is counting down
Dale, in writing rules for the gauge pod, how can we do a bench seat car with no center console. I like the idea of gauges to monitor, but I am at a loss for the wording. Any ideas?
Time is counting down
wantattype2
Member
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2010
I agree that with a revision to the minimum weight rule, the jack & spare tire removal should remain optional in order for the cars to either add or subtract weight to meet that number.
On the subject of aftermarket gauge pods for bench seat cars, the rules now allow for one pillar mounted gauge why not make that 3 ? Or give bench seat cars the option of mounting them on the bottom of the dash under the radio .
On the subject of aftermarket gauge pods for bench seat cars, the rules now allow for one pillar mounted gauge why not make that 3 ? Or give bench seat cars the option of mounting them on the bottom of the dash under the radio .
turbodave231
Moderator
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
I intended to race the TSA class this year. I had my vacation time lined-up and my mother ended up in the hospital. I obviously could not attend . I fully intend to participate in 2015. I have spent a great deal of time building my car to meet the class rules. I don't expect a vote, but I'd like to share my thoughts:
I think a replacement driver side header should be allowed as long as the stock crossover (or stock replacement) and stock pass header is used. I have gotten very good at TIG welding the cracked headers and making them last. I will continue to use the stockers. The passenger side headers rarely crack and there is no reason to allow a substitution. In the spirit of keeping this entry level, please keep the passenger side stock header.
Stock downpipe? What about the ATR mandrel bent stock size replacement? I went to great lengths to find and buy one......now I need to take it off? I have it installed with a stock appearing elbow, seal and catalytic converter (empty of course). I'll take it off the car if you insist, but I won't like it much.
I am conflicted about the rocker arm proposal. I hate the stock rockers. I'd love to use a nice set of T&D's but I hate the spacers. I hate the way they look. I could be convinced either way on this proposal.
Rear control arms? The stockers work OK (just OK, not great) and are plenty strong (I've never seen one break). Again, keep the entry level idea alive and require everyone to use the same stockers.
My car is a bench seat car. If allowed I would gladly remove the ashtray and install two additional gauges below the radio. There is no performance gain from gauges, but additional gauges could potentially save your engine by monitoring oil press and coolant temp. I would suggest to NOT allow wideband or any other gauges other than oil press and coolant temp.
I am not sure what my car weights, I haven't scaled it yet. I have the CF5 factory sunroof so I know my car is heavy. Adding an additional 50# to the min weight works in my favor.
I think a replacement driver side header should be allowed as long as the stock crossover (or stock replacement) and stock pass header is used. I have gotten very good at TIG welding the cracked headers and making them last. I will continue to use the stockers. The passenger side headers rarely crack and there is no reason to allow a substitution. In the spirit of keeping this entry level, please keep the passenger side stock header.
Stock downpipe? What about the ATR mandrel bent stock size replacement? I went to great lengths to find and buy one......now I need to take it off? I have it installed with a stock appearing elbow, seal and catalytic converter (empty of course). I'll take it off the car if you insist, but I won't like it much.
I am conflicted about the rocker arm proposal. I hate the stock rockers. I'd love to use a nice set of T&D's but I hate the spacers. I hate the way they look. I could be convinced either way on this proposal.
Rear control arms? The stockers work OK (just OK, not great) and are plenty strong (I've never seen one break). Again, keep the entry level idea alive and require everyone to use the same stockers.
My car is a bench seat car. If allowed I would gladly remove the ashtray and install two additional gauges below the radio. There is no performance gain from gauges, but additional gauges could potentially save your engine by monitoring oil press and coolant temp. I would suggest to NOT allow wideband or any other gauges other than oil press and coolant temp.
I am not sure what my car weights, I haven't scaled it yet. I have the CF5 factory sunroof so I know my car is heavy. Adding an additional 50# to the min weight works in my favor.
If the three gauge rule passes, I think the 3 gauge pillar holder or one gauge pillar holder and the two gauge holder on the console should be the two choices for layout. That way bucket seat and bench seat cars are covered. As for under the radio on a bench seat car the only way I have seen that done was with the ashtray being removed and to me that is not very stock appearing.
How does everyone feel about leaving it in for racing? It takes way longer to take a spare tire out that it does a laptop.
Dave, nice to see you jumping on board with TSA. What color is your car, interior and exterior? A sunroof bench seat car is very cool in my book.
turbodave231
Moderator
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Kip,
White and Grey. It is a 40/60 manual split bench seat (not the full bench) with power windows, power locks and cruise. It is an unusual combination for sure, but all original including paint. The car had a few "old school" items (fender-dump) that I have removed.
White and Grey. It is a 40/60 manual split bench seat (not the full bench) with power windows, power locks and cruise. It is an unusual combination for sure, but all original including paint. The car had a few "old school" items (fender-dump) that I have removed.
Thanks for the info. I am looking forward to seeing it in person. I hated the fender dump rage back when it was popular, thank goodness that one died out.
wantattype2
Member
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2010
Turbodave231 Thanks for your reply. I was the new guy in this class this year and was ask if I had any suggestion on Ideas for the class to post them on this forum for discussion . 2 years ago I started to build my car to meet the rules for R. C. TSA and was confused how the rules were so specific to maintain a stock appearance every where from gaskets to hose clamps but not the downpipe. Please understand that I do NOT have a problem with the use of any aftermarket part that is commercially available to Everyone.
MY idea of an entry level class is something that the average guy could do without any special skills, example welding or fabrication . Also MY idea of stock appearing is something that the average guy at the car show or drag strip that is not a Buick Guy would not catch, example Aftermarket Stock Replacement headers , Vacuum Brakes & HR rear control arms with a stock sway bar. I want my car to be as fast and safe as possible and confuse the heck out of the other races at the track. I feel that participation in this class could be increased if we get away from the concours interpretation of what TSA means. I have to believe that there are very few people that want to build a car for a class so restrictive that only runs once a year.
I want everyone to understand I am not trying to change the rules to fit my car, but to give my thoughts on what I think could increase participation .
Just MY opinions .
Thanks,
Dale
MY idea of an entry level class is something that the average guy could do without any special skills, example welding or fabrication . Also MY idea of stock appearing is something that the average guy at the car show or drag strip that is not a Buick Guy would not catch, example Aftermarket Stock Replacement headers , Vacuum Brakes & HR rear control arms with a stock sway bar. I want my car to be as fast and safe as possible and confuse the heck out of the other races at the track. I feel that participation in this class could be increased if we get away from the concours interpretation of what TSA means. I have to believe that there are very few people that want to build a car for a class so restrictive that only runs once a year.
I want everyone to understand I am not trying to change the rules to fit my car, but to give my thoughts on what I think could increase participation .
Just MY opinions .
Thanks,
Dale
Thumper
Active Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Here we go, voting can be done here on the board or emailed to me at billthomp86@yahoo.com.
#1 Stock style replacement headers and crossover allowed, OR replacement driver side header and/or crossover, OR the rule stays the same as last year.
This is not a yes or no, tell me which you want.
#2 deleted.
#3 Minimum car weight change to 3550lbs
#4 Valve cover extension/spacers no more than 3/8" ( Keep in mind that this may not be compatible with factory valve cover studs/bolts??????)
#5 Must use stock unmodified downpipe with stock style gasket and mounting hardware.
#6 To remove the rule stating must show car on Friday.
#7 Allow the use of vacuum brakes on 86-87 TRs in 2015.
#8 2 additional gauges, no larger than 2 1/8" (water temp and oil pressure) allowed, but all gauges must be piller and/or console mounted and must be in commercially available pod painted to match interior color with all wiring hidden in a factory style black loom. Bench seat vehicles may have gauges mounted on pillar and/or on side of instrument panel above radio/heater control area in commercially available fully enclosed pod matching interior color.
#9 Use of aftermarket rear upper and lower control arms, non-adjustable and black in color, that retain factory original rear sway bar.
#10 Use of laptop and or wideband 02 during qualifying. Must be REMOVED for racing.
#11 Use of laptop and or wideband 02 allowed ( qualifying and racing )
#12 Spare tire and jack may be removed during qualifying and racing.
I am still a little open on the proper wording, so feel free to correct me if something needs a fine tune on the wording. Or if I missed something.
give me a list of yes or no on the items above 1 thru 12
Thanks
Bill
#1 Stock style replacement headers and crossover allowed, OR replacement driver side header and/or crossover, OR the rule stays the same as last year.
This is not a yes or no, tell me which you want.
#2 deleted.
#3 Minimum car weight change to 3550lbs
#4 Valve cover extension/spacers no more than 3/8" ( Keep in mind that this may not be compatible with factory valve cover studs/bolts??????)
#5 Must use stock unmodified downpipe with stock style gasket and mounting hardware.
#6 To remove the rule stating must show car on Friday.
#7 Allow the use of vacuum brakes on 86-87 TRs in 2015.
#8 2 additional gauges, no larger than 2 1/8" (water temp and oil pressure) allowed, but all gauges must be piller and/or console mounted and must be in commercially available pod painted to match interior color with all wiring hidden in a factory style black loom. Bench seat vehicles may have gauges mounted on pillar and/or on side of instrument panel above radio/heater control area in commercially available fully enclosed pod matching interior color.
#9 Use of aftermarket rear upper and lower control arms, non-adjustable and black in color, that retain factory original rear sway bar.
#10 Use of laptop and or wideband 02 during qualifying. Must be REMOVED for racing.
#11 Use of laptop and or wideband 02 allowed ( qualifying and racing )
#12 Spare tire and jack may be removed during qualifying and racing.
I am still a little open on the proper wording, so feel free to correct me if something needs a fine tune on the wording. Or if I missed something.
give me a list of yes or no on the items above 1 thru 12
Thanks
Bill
Last edited:
wantattype2
Member
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2010
[QUOTE="Thumper, Please keep in mind at the time the newest tsa rules were wrote we were going to use the tss name, so the rules are loosened up a bit in hopes of participation. All 4 cars that showed up came in very close to the older rules.
Thanks
Bill Thompson
TSA RRA[/QUOTE]
I just thought the last half of Bills first post needed to be reposted.
Would everyone be so passionate about the use of aftermarket parts if the class was named Turbo Street Stock ?
Ladies & Gentlemen do we really want a race class with only 3 to 5 cars racing ? Do we think that we will have Sponsors for a class that has a low car count and does not use any of their parts ?
Will spectators come to the GS Nats to see a 5 car class ? Increased Participation will keep this class alive. We have to make it simple for people to participate, example headers bolt them on and forget it . No one wants to buy a set of headers and just use half of them, besides the pass side is the closest to stock appearing.
Think of this as restrictor plate racing, regulate the intake and exhaust side of the turbo example air filter box ,MAF sensor, hose, inlet bell , exhaust elbow and down pipe. I am not asking to throw all the rules out but, how about not sweating the details and loosening things up some ?
Did anyone notice the increased car count in the Buick Stock Appearing Class ? That use to be a low car count class when it was so restrictive, Read the rules now basically use the stock air filter assy, Q jet carb, and stock cast iron exhaust manifolds and paint the rest Red .
Maybe I am ALL wrong, let me know.
Thanks
Dale
Thanks
Bill Thompson
TSA RRA[/QUOTE]
I just thought the last half of Bills first post needed to be reposted.
Would everyone be so passionate about the use of aftermarket parts if the class was named Turbo Street Stock ?
Ladies & Gentlemen do we really want a race class with only 3 to 5 cars racing ? Do we think that we will have Sponsors for a class that has a low car count and does not use any of their parts ?
Will spectators come to the GS Nats to see a 5 car class ? Increased Participation will keep this class alive. We have to make it simple for people to participate, example headers bolt them on and forget it . No one wants to buy a set of headers and just use half of them, besides the pass side is the closest to stock appearing.
Think of this as restrictor plate racing, regulate the intake and exhaust side of the turbo example air filter box ,MAF sensor, hose, inlet bell , exhaust elbow and down pipe. I am not asking to throw all the rules out but, how about not sweating the details and loosening things up some ?
Did anyone notice the increased car count in the Buick Stock Appearing Class ? That use to be a low car count class when it was so restrictive, Read the rules now basically use the stock air filter assy, Q jet carb, and stock cast iron exhaust manifolds and paint the rest Red .
Maybe I am ALL wrong, let me know.
Thanks
Dale
wantattype2
Member
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2010
My Vote
#1 Replacement Headers because there will not be a performance advantage just less Aggravation.
#3 yes
#4 yes
#5 yes
#6 yes
#7 yes
#8 yes
#9 yes
#10 yes
#11 No
#12 yes
#1 Replacement Headers because there will not be a performance advantage just less Aggravation.
#3 yes
#4 yes
#5 yes
#6 yes
#7 yes
#8 yes
#9 yes
#10 yes
#11 No
#12 yes
11.20n1320
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2001
I dont have a dog in this fight but why rule #11 ? I would think you would allow a wide band to get the most out of your cmbo as safely as possible for a good show for the spectators. Lets face it a GN or TR wouldnt exist with out a laptop.
DDay
DDay
