Big Injectors or alky kit for stock application???

[boosted3]

Hey guys i need some assistance in making a decision on my TR. I have an 86 Turbo T with 3" THDP, Walbro pump, hotwire kit, adj reg, adj wastegate, RJC powerplate, Ported stock upper intake, street chip........stock turbo and injectors. I am planning my next investment and like many TR owners i am on a tight budget. I am trying to make a decision on whether to buy an alky kit to push my car or 60# high Z injectors. Both being about the same price, I have gone to some of my fellow "boosted" friends to help me in my decision. But they havent helped me much. I have some ppl telling me i need to get alky because the injectors will be too big to tune with a stock turbo. But i have others telling me to go with the injectors because not only can i push the turbo to its fullest extent but i will also be prepared for when i get a larger turbo.

Personally I like the injector idea because of the planning into the future and it will be one less thing I will have to buy later...also It should be easier to tune than alcohol. But yet i am hesitant because i dont know how the injectors will react being so BIG with a stock turbo.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
THanks

 

[ES1]

Get the alky and get your stockers cleaned / flowed.
I like running 20+psi.

 

[TampaTurbo]

Alcky is the ONLY way to go. I am running 13.10 on the ORIGINAL
injectors, turbo, trans, converter etc. Just a little alcky and 20# of boost.

 

[wh1-Denver]

I would get the Pac alky kit from Razor (alkycontrol.com).
It has been the best bang for the buck I have done. It is an upgrade that you will need in the future anyhow unless you plan on buying race fuel all the time.

 

[dentmasters01]

Get the alky now. It too is a "future" item that you can run with your current turbo or any other turbo in the future. Injectors need to be matched to the turbo at hand. Its ok to have like one size up injectors, (not really) but your jumping to 60's? Thats over kill for a stock turbo. Think about a spray bottle, and lets say you need ( I know this is way off, but bare with me) 100 cc's of gas per pulse of the injectors. Stock inj. may require 45 lbs to get that much. Which means the pressure you "spray" it at is great. Creates a very fine mist of gas. Large inj. will require less pressure and would be like barely pulling the trigger on a spray bottle. Just dribbles out. you still get your 100 cc's of gas but one is going to work much better for you. You won't need those large inj. unless your going to like a 60's turbo, at which time you can purchase them then.

I have bee drinking alittle tonight so this could be like way off.

Am I wrong? anybody?

 

[Dwayne]

alky.........get it tuned first, then "grow" with the alky.

 

[salvageV6]

Do you intend to race the car?

If so, how? Race fuel or pump gas and alky.?

For a fast street car NOW get the alky. and you can even race with it.

Larger injectors and a good chip will work fine with the stock turbo and equipment but will do you no good unless you crank up the boost and timing with a race chip and race gas for racing.

So you would need two chips to go fast and could only do it on race gas. On the street you would be octane limited.

Get the alky. and a good chip for the stock injectors and run 22psi. and some timing with an SMC kit and TurboTweak chip and be happy.

Just my .02, I'd probably save up and do them both however, keeps the chip costs down.

 

[Nick Micale]

Maybe my opinion is biased since I have replaced many head gaskets on T-R's that have run lean, but my choice is injectors. The alky is not a substitute for adaquate fuel.

Start pushing the turbo, and alky will not have any mercy on head gaskets.

 

[Reaper]

i am with NIck all the way on this. i have blue tops on my car as well as an SMC kit, the alky is only there for a bit of fun not much but a bit. i can run about 18 psi on a good day in AZ thats all i want with out race gas in the mix. i will not chance my HGs to more then out with out a lil bit in the bank ($$$)

your really better served with the injectors and a duttneck. maybe if your inclined enff a DIY alky kit.


just my fraction of a cent on this subject.
Dathan

 

[strikeeagle]

I see bigger injectors and alky as pretty much separate issues.

These cars being 17 years old and the stock injectors being 28 PPH, NOBODY should be running stock injectors.

Alky-wise, I just installed Razor's kit and am running 22 PSI on the street and paying about $2.20 a gallon for 93, versus $4.29 for 100. Has to be the way to go...

 

[TurboDave]

IMHO you've gotten some good advice in this thread and some more very questionable advice.

As I said, IMHO, there's no substitute for fuel. NO alky is not a substitute for a lack of fuel. Stock injectors will only be able to supply x amount of fuel, no matter what you do.

A good set of injectors (50's or 60's) are perfectly tuneable, will work well with your system until you can get the turbo upgraded, and you'll only need to buy once. Alky's just an add on that can always come later. It can't make more fuel, and certainly can't make up for the lack of it.

Set your goal, race.. street.. ET's, etc. and go from there.
Injectors first, Turbo next, then and only when you have your combo tuned should you even think about adding alky.

 

[murphster]

I'd agree mostly with what Nick said, and add to that. You can definitely get more performance from alchy with the stock injectors (assuming the injectors are in good condition) but you have to be careful. You'll want to have everything tuned right on the alchy and have a good alchy chip and even then you'll be on the edge.

I'm running stock replacement green stripe injectors (30#'s) and high boost (20+) and have gotten my car into the low 12's. However, I'm using 100 octane unleaded minimum all the time and have had to slowly increase the fuel pressure along with boost as I've tuned the car. I have to be careful in third gear and always keep an eye on the knock gauge in case I start to lean out. I've been very careful as my times get better and know that a mistake could mean head gaskets. I'm also not on a tight budget so I'm prepared if things go wrong.

I've chosen to keep upgrading the rest of the car for now to max out the injectors and stock turbo (and stock intercooler) as much as possible. Once that is done I'll probably upgrade the injectors and turbo together. Don't forget putting a convertor on the list. Might want to squeeze that upgrade in between injectors and turbo (don't want a laggy upgraded turbo do ya?). Much more fun having a big convertor with a little turbo than vice versa.

For you on a tight budget, I'd look at getting some used blue tops with chips ($200 or so) and then an alchy kit and with good tuning you could get into mid to low 12's. Then you can delay upgrading the turbo until you've maximized the stock turbo and hopefully save up some money in the meantime.

Just some alternative ideas on what you could do. You have to figure over the long term how much money you will have available and what you want to do.

 

[dentmasters01]

I totally agree with the converter. Alky is good how ever you decide to do it. How ever, you could also do a 7th inj. I still say stock inj. are ok for a stock turbo. Everyone puts in big inj. to compensate for poor tuning, and it kill your bottom end. 50lb are rated to 500hp when tuned properly. We have an 86 gn. Stock injectors, ta49 big neck cooler, 70mmtb, 3500 stall, 7th inj. tuned with only a scan master and egt. full body car 7.40 in the eigth. Don't know the correct math, but I think thats mid 11's.

How fast are you trying to go? HP?

My personal t only had 42.5 lbs with a 54 and went 10.60. Big injectors are a good "safety net" if tuning is not all that great.

The 86 t I bought today only has 55lbs inj. and runs mid 9's

Oh yea, it has 13 of em

 

[Razor]

If the injectors are bad, then no sense in adding an alky kit. I ran my stock injectors with alky down to 12.0. They were at 120% DC tho.. I then switched to MSD 50's, then ran 12.0 but at 73% DC.

Be amazed at what you can do tuning and stretching what you have. You can upgrade to 50's and have no drivability issues. Tho if your looking to make the car fast on the street, an alcohol system is hard to beat for the $$$.

To run 16 PSI boost with a stock motor.. the stock injectors will do fine. To run 23 PSI on a stock motor, then better consider bigger injectors and how to get the octane to support the horsepower.

I'll leave ya with this, my buddy Ed at DC Tech just ran 12.0's with a stock turbo, 009's, an alky kit(guess who's), at BG last month. Lots of tuning.. and patience.

So the two are on different spectrums, if you want to run 18-20 PSI on a stock motor and the injectors are in good shape.. whats wrong with stock injectors + alky? As long as theyre not being run static... no issue. As a matter of fact, pumping in some volume, you may just get away with 22 PSI without running your injectors static. My 50's were at 74-76% DC at 98.4 in the 1/8th.. lots of alky tho.

Hope the info helps...

 

[boosted3]

Thanks for all the info guys......To answer a few questions..........
I am trying to go as fast as i can with a stock turbo..some ppl say it can touch the 11's. I am going to street drive/race it all the time and will be occasionally taking it to the track. but i will always have it on pump gas 93/94. My only concern is will the 60#ers work on pump gas????? My injectors are not bad. This car will go 12.30s with race gas in it now. I am just trying to get a combo together so i can run 22psi all the time on the street. Injectors or alky either one is fine, I have been getting some mixed feelings from some of the info i have been getting. One guy says go alky cuz the big injectors wont work w/out race gas. The other guy says go injectors...it will be fine. Can anyone give me a good solid answer that will help me make a decision?????
Thanks Guys

 

[boosted3]

OH and anyone that could tell me where to get a real good custom burnt stock inj. chip please let me know!
THanks

 

[kh440]

eric@turbotweak(sp?).com. Just be patient, he's a little backed up right now.

 

[murphster]

I don't think there is a problem using bigger injectors without race gas. The question is whether or not you want to take the time to be careful pushing the stock injectors to the limit on alchy.

If you are going to only run pump gas, the bigger injectors won't help you run faster hardly at all. Since you won't be able to use much boost, you won't really even benefit from them (unless you are using race gas and assuming your current injectors are good). On the other hand, if you get alchy you will start raising the boost and eventually will be close to pushing the injectors, but if you are careful and cautious, you can get away with it, but the performance probably won't be maximized until you get bigger injectors. Maybe get the alchy and only run 20 lbs boost for a while if you don't want to push it too hard until you can get bigger injectors. At least you'll be faster now rather than getting injectors first and seeing no improvement until you can also get the alchy (assuming you are only using pump gas).

Just depends on how careful you want to be. You can be the best judge of yourself on that.

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by boosted3
Thanks for all the info guys......To answer a few questions..........
I am trying to go as fast as i can with a stock turbo..some ppl say it can touch the 11's. I am going to street drive/race it all the time and will be occasionally taking it to the track. but i will always have it on pump gas 93/94. My only concern is will the 60#ers work on pump gas????? My injectors are not bad. This car will go 12.30s with race gas in it now. I am just trying to get a combo together so i can run 22psi all the time on the street. Injectors or alky either one is fine, I have been getting some mixed feelings from some of the info i have been getting. One guy says go alky cuz the big injectors wont work w/out race gas. The other guy says go injectors...it will be fine. Can anyone give me a good solid answer that will help me make a decision?????
Thanks Guys

Heres a dum question... Why 60lb injectors? Why not 009's or 50's . 50's are good to the high 10's.. a place that stock turbo will never be. Plus you say the car runs 12.30's.. well at 12.30's your already out of injector, especially without alky.

I'll leave ya with those two to chew on

 

[boosted3]

ok ........

Why 60#'s...................



Like i said above.... Money is tight. I dont want to have to buy injectors twice. I figured I go right to 60# high Z injectors to save myself from having to buy bigger injectors again when i get a larger turbo. I have been told by a few friends locally that if I buy big injectors I will be able to run 22 psi on the street on pump gas because of the volume of fuel they will push. But I dont know if this is right. Yes my car may go 12.30s now with race gas in it but i wanna be able to puch that kind of boost on the street with pump gas.

Why not 009's or 50's?

Why not 60's. They are the same price and will support much more when it comes down to what turbo I wanna buy.
Just some things I am trying to figure out before i make my next purchase. I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to pushing a stock turbo on pump gas.
Can I run 22 psi on pump gas with JUST 60# injectors or will I still need race gas or alky????

TIA Guys this is very helpful