How many hp without girdle ?
- Thread starter GN280CI
- Start date
2QUICK2B6
Black Car Fever
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2004
im no engine builder or tunner but i have to agree some people say all you need is caps some people say all u need is a girdle .... i went with both .... but i know the bottom end will faLL in the street / track if it sees enough detonation especially @ high boost .... detonation is like a jackhammer on your bottom end
GetOwnedVette
Active Member
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2006
Caps > girdle
But by all means go both is you want
But by all means go both is you want
HelloBozos
A Bozo in Buick
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2011
I run just billet mains, i here the girdle's leak oil,with stock block you shouldn't go over 700hp or so being stock blocks are gernades after 550hp!!!
Enjoy!
Enjoy!
I've never had a girdle leak. Ive installed at least 6 of them. Everything else seems to leak after you put some pressure on them though
It is really a loaded question.
It will probably make 1000 HP..... for one pass if you don't detonate it. I think assuming no detination...... the higher the HP level... the shorter time you will be running with no issues. At 550hp.... the stock bottom end will live for quite a while with no detonation.
IMHO, the girdle from an engineering point is superior to just steel caps.... period.
It will probably make 1000 HP..... for one pass if you don't detonate it. I think assuming no detination...... the higher the HP level... the shorter time you will be running with no issues. At 550hp.... the stock bottom end will live for quite a while with no detonation.
IMHO, the girdle from an engineering point is superior to just steel caps.... period.
on my old engine.....basically the same as the one I have now just was running a 223/223 flat tappet instead of the 210/215 roller I have now and bottom end was all stock......this was about 8 years ago the engine had been together for a lil while and had seen some detonation on the street (I did not know what I was doing lol) anyway I went to my buddy's that had a MD dyno to get it tuned.
We started out with real low boost and worked up....I have the dyno sheet some where but I was basically at 430 hp and 475tq at 19 psi.....I am also running a non locking converter, I did the calculations and figured I was right around 500flwhp I really wanted 500rwhp and I knew the car would make it but I had heard lots of people say not to go too much past 500flwhp on stock bottom end so we ended the day there.
The next day I went to run a quick errand and as soon as I got out in the street....knock,knock,knock said the bottom end! I pulled the engine down and found a stretched rod bolt with a spun bearing. Long story short I rebuilt and went with a girdle,ARP rod bolts and forged aluminum pistons.....no more issues
I know the roller setup I have now makes more power and I have run higher boost levels.....I pulled the engine down earlier this year do to a head gasket letting go......the bearings looked like new except for the lil trash that went throught the engine....I have to contribute that to the girdle!
As for the oli leaks on a girdeled engine......I use great stuff and have not had any leaks.
Hope that helps!
We started out with real low boost and worked up....I have the dyno sheet some where but I was basically at 430 hp and 475tq at 19 psi.....I am also running a non locking converter, I did the calculations and figured I was right around 500flwhp I really wanted 500rwhp and I knew the car would make it but I had heard lots of people say not to go too much past 500flwhp on stock bottom end so we ended the day there.
The next day I went to run a quick errand and as soon as I got out in the street....knock,knock,knock said the bottom end! I pulled the engine down and found a stretched rod bolt with a spun bearing. Long story short I rebuilt and went with a girdle,ARP rod bolts and forged aluminum pistons.....no more issues
I know the roller setup I have now makes more power and I have run higher boost levels.....I pulled the engine down earlier this year do to a head gasket letting go......the bearings looked like new except for the lil trash that went throught the engine....I have to contribute that to the girdle!
As for the oli leaks on a girdeled engine......I use great stuff and have not had any leaks.
Hope that helps!
KL Mallender
Certified Dumb****
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2007
I have no doubts of your power accomplishments sir, but I respectfully disagree with your assesment on what "flexes" and what actually causes what.
Cast iron(nodular or otherwise) is one of the strongest metals that any of us get to play with, but has the downside that it would rather crack\snap once it's yield strength has been exceeded. It might suprise some that "oil" in itself is stonger than most any metal(sq in to sq in surface wise).
It's been a while since the DOTC has posted it's latest casualty, I am positive that ANY who became a member does not wish to renew his/her membership anytime soon. But it wasn't the crankshaft's fault for making the mess, it was the centerline of the block twisting under load from the bellhousing trying to rip the block between the motor mounts and it, the engine block is a tough bitch, but can only move -so much- per square inch before it actually cracks between it's stressed points, the crankshaft is only more than happy to spin as long as it is not asked to move from it's RC(rotating center) to another.
Remember, it's only a couple of thousandths of oil wedge between rotating friction surfaces(example: .0025 bearing clearence is .001275 oil wedge area), any deflection more than this would result in shaft-to-bearing wear(contact), bearing/shaft wear should NEVER occur if oil wedge is present due to the film strength(viscosity-vs-pressure-square inch of surface area). How many of you are still with me?
Here is the short copy: Cast anything(metal wise) is infinately stronger(but more fragile/brittle) than other metals containing less amounts of carbon(IE:5140/4340 and so-on).
A "forged steel" crankshaft can survive better(but NOT infinately) in a moving RC(rotating centerline) block as long as the oil wedge continues to seperate them from contact, steel(depending on it's carbon percentage)because it is flexible/bendable untill it "work hardens"(great name for stress cracks).
If oil film(pressure barrier) exists, there will be NO wear between moving parts(shafts/housings)
Bearing damage(overlay worn down into substrate) whether radial scratches or wiped, can usually be traced to contamination of oil supply(or poor assembly conditions) which no magic "metal" can tollerate.
Cylinder blocks, while robust and heavy, do in fact "move" in reaction to forces imposed "through" them.
I pass this bit of information to those interested in "preserving" what they have and wish to keep it that way, high button parts won't help if your car is on the trailer......dripping it's blood.
IF YOU RACE A TURBOCHARGED BUICK V6, INSTALL A ENGINE "MID-PLATE" TO CONTROL ENGINE ROTATION AND LEAVE THE ORIGINAL MOUNTS ALONE, sorry for screaming, but it will be the last time I offer this advice.
Best of luck guy's,
Kevin.
You can disagree all you want. Ive ran 700+hp through these with stock bottom ends and over 800hp through others. There is a big difference in the condition of the center mains when a forged crank is used. The forged crank moves around a lot less and the surface is considerably harder than a stock crank. I totally agree about the engine mount area transferring a lot of stress through the side of the block. Usually resulting in the #2 main webbing cracking up to the cam bore. A steel crank with steel caps will work considerble better than a stock crank and caps for block longevity using the factory engine mounts with no engine plate used. I've found the stock pistons to take less thrashing than the crank or block. Over time under a lot of power the block would likely fail likebi described.
KL Mallender
Certified Dumb****
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2007
I won't argue with what you answered with, YOU don't see wear in the mains because the crank is allowing the block to twist without snapping it's ass off in your hands, if it were a cast crank rotating, it's stiffness/ridgeity would either wipe out what it came into contact with(by over whelming the oil film) or by cracking between the centerline differences, well, I give up trying to explain. Boost away boy's, I'm sure you will have the same "WTF" expression on your faces when the last one explodes, good riddence to stupidity.
Kevin.
Kevin.
KL Mallender
Certified Dumb****
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2007
Juan, I commend you for being the first to ask,
Yes, a "Typical" engine 'mid-plate' would be mounted between the engine and transmission, with mountings (hopefully) at or below crankshaft centerline.
This (depending on it's design) sandwhich plate with lower ears could be quite easily adapted if frame brackets were added on each side of rails,spaced just wide enough for a rubberised bushing to be used, the tough part would be the opening on the right hand side to allow for downpipe(street car) usage, wouldn't be a worry for drag-only people, they would typically shoot exhaust straight out the fender, so this fitment could cause headaches with street designed downpipes(full exhaust implied), but can impose uncountless frustrations for the guy/gal at home if not accounted for, but I bet there is a wizard or three in the house to work on something like this together, and WITHOUT bloodshed, preferrably.
The next question is who? I think RJC has the beginings in reguards to the left side, but without support from the right hand side it only puts compression into the forward block area. If others can agree on the problem that exists, then the solution will be much easier overcome, that is all I can offer.
Best of luck ('cause talent can only get you so far) gent's,
Kevin.
Yes, a "Typical" engine 'mid-plate' would be mounted between the engine and transmission, with mountings (hopefully) at or below crankshaft centerline.
This (depending on it's design) sandwhich plate with lower ears could be quite easily adapted if frame brackets were added on each side of rails,spaced just wide enough for a rubberised bushing to be used, the tough part would be the opening on the right hand side to allow for downpipe(street car) usage, wouldn't be a worry for drag-only people, they would typically shoot exhaust straight out the fender, so this fitment could cause headaches with street designed downpipes(full exhaust implied), but can impose uncountless frustrations for the guy/gal at home if not accounted for, but I bet there is a wizard or three in the house to work on something like this together, and WITHOUT bloodshed, preferrably.
The next question is who? I think RJC has the beginings in reguards to the left side, but without support from the right hand side it only puts compression into the forward block area. If others can agree on the problem that exists, then the solution will be much easier overcome, that is all I can offer.
Best of luck ('cause talent can only get you so far) gent's,
Kevin.
QwuickTurbo6
Member
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2007
I take it you are an engineer in need of a fabricator
Where do you get a mid-plate for a turbo 6?
