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R-12 to R-134a Conversion on a Turbo Buick

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GM White = .072 Stock (1 o-ring)
Ford Blue = .067 one step smaller (2 o-rings)
Ford Red = .062 Two steps smaller (2 o-rings)
GM Blue = .067 same as Ford Blue but 1 o-ring like the stock.

Thanks Sal... I recall reading of the ford blue so thats what I used in my car when we did the swap... brain fart prevented me from finding the post.

The car gets COLD at idle. I did opt for a new higher efficiency condensor and evaporator as well.

Adding the Ramchargers fan setup and the F-body radiator at the same time helped I'm sure. Engine temps are much more stable as a result.
 
Wow, this is great info. Experts here please advise what to do...

I am installing new Condenser, Compressor, Drier, F-body rad, and flushed out the AC lines. Condenser and radiator are installed and about to install compressor tomorrow and finish up. I poured 2 oz Ester into condenser, and 4 oz into compressor as of yesterday.

Should i go as planned with the R134A?? Or switch?

Houston gets 100+ temps with high humidity....
 
There used to be a member here Savannah Auto Air who sold Parallel flow condensers to replace the stock tube and fin for our cars. He made custom brackets and tubing. It was a bolt on part but he is not around anymore to my knowledge. HI85WH1 where did you get the condenser from? You also mentioned a high efficiency evaporator. I was not aware of anyone making these. Where did you get it from? I would love one for myself.:)
 
There used to be a member here Savannah Auto Air who sold Parallel flow condensers to replace the stock tube and fin for our cars. He made custom brackets and tubing. It was a bolt on part but he is not around anymore to my knowledge. HI85WH1 where did you get the condenser from? You also mentioned a high efficiency evaporator. I was not aware of anyone making these. Where did you get it from? I would love one for myself.:)

Has anyone used these guys before?

Automotive Air Conditioning Parts & Equipment - WWW.ACKITS.COM: Parallel Flow Condensers - Aluminum

Looks like you would need to have hoses made too...
 
I was looking on rockauto.com and noticed they have two different condensers for sale. The stock serpentine and then a 6mm expanded tube The VISTA-PRO Part # 2035 {#632322}. While the 6mm expanded tube is better than stock it is still not as good as the parallel flow.

Vista-Pro Automotive, LLC
 
R12-r134


Do you know what's in freeze 12.........? Propane!!!! that's right and I don't want to be blown up in my car if I get a leak in the evaporator or any part of the AC system and there's an ignition source. i.e. smoking a cigarette, a spark.


Now you guys are making this whole thing more confusing and harder than it is. I converted my system to 134 years ago and I tell you it gets cooolllllldddd!!!! 38* vent temps at idle in 85* plus weather. What components did I change?... Nothing. I only added dual fans. Although I did have to eventually change the OE compressor which was 20+ years old anyway. Here is a detailed expalnation of what works and why and a how to for converting your system.

The main reasons your R134 system does not get as cold as your R12 are
1)condensor inefficiency. The fins are too big to properly condense R134 molecules therefore alot of heat is still left in the refrigerant after it leaves the condensor.
2) incorrect metering device (oriface tube) the factory oriface tube was designed for R12 therefore does not meter the correct amount of refrigerant to change the state of R134 from a high pressure gas to a very fine low pressure gas. The Ford oriface tube is a very good low cost idea but any auto parts store should sell or be able to order orifice tubes designed for extreme heat climates. These would probably work even better.

3) R134 operates at a higher pressure than R12 so you need to charge the system with 10% less than the factory recommeded amount. I'd go as far to say 12% less depending on your gauge pressure. This is the main cause of compressor failure, overcharging. The compressor is just a pump it doesn't know what you put in it. Then turn your low pressure switch down so that the compressor does not cycle off until it the gauge goes down to about 22-25 psi.

4) Air flow. Did you notice that as we switched to R134 many vehicles also started putting huge electric fans to force air through the condensor? So did I, do this and you don't need to change the condensor.....air flow is the real key!!!!

So what do you actually need to change. 1)Accumulator/drier 2)oriface tube 3) refridgerant. All this other stuff orings and oil and compressors are just overboard. A tid bit of information for you....an oring, is an oring, is an oring. The color designates size, standard or metric but any color will work if it is the right size...period!!!
Do not, I repeat do not flush your system unless your compressor suffered a catastrophic failure. The hoses on the R12 system are not designed to withold the tiny molecules of R134 and will cause microscopic leaks in the system. The oil that has been saturated into those hoses form a protective barrier against leaks. Flushing the system will remove that barrier. Unless you are changing the compressor also you only need to add about 2oz of universal refridgerant oil. If you can't find it in your local parts store 2oz of pag will not hurt your system at all. Evacuate your system if you have vacuum pump for 30-45 minutes.

Why would anyone put 8oz of oil into an existing system when the compressor itself only holds 4-6oz of oil and even when flushing you can't get the oil out of the compressor unless you remove it from the vehicle and physically drain the oil out. Even then you measure what you remove and replace it with the exact amount plus 1oz.
So I hope this cleared some things up for some of you that nay have been a little confused about this whole process. It does not have to be expensive or painful uless you want it to.

Pete
 
Put r12 in it then. I have tested this with the stock orifice, the blue orifice and the variable orifice tube and it does not perform like r-12 ever did. As you put in the smaller orifice tube the system will choke above 2300 rpm and you vent temps will go up 5 degrees at higher speeds, so its a trade off. I have special thermometers that measure the temperatures in and out of the condensor and lines,and the temp in the car at the same time. gauges and scales to measure the amount of freon in the system. My cooling fans take 54 amps and flow 4000 cfm. R-134 does not have the capacity to sustain low vent temps at idle, even with the parallel flow condensor.

Sit in traffic on a hot day for 1 hour and I would like to see your 38 degree temps, its not going to happen. I am not making things up here, spent hours and hours of testing.

DId you know that 134-a is cancerous and is deadly if breathed enough. 134A is not as efficient as R12 [about 20% to 25% less efficient]. Again, it will work OK but don;t expect it to be as good as r-12 period.


http://yarchive.net/ac/r134a_lethal.html
 
Conversion

R-134 does not have the capacity to sustain low vent temps at idle, even with the parallel flow condensor.

Sit in traffic on a hot day for 1 hour and I would like to see your 38 degree temps, its not going to happen. I am not making things up here, spent hours and hours of testing.

DId you know that 134-a is cancerous and is deadly if breathed enough. 134A is not as efficient as R12 [about 20% to 25% less efficient]. Again, it will work OK but don;t expect it to be as good as r-12 period.


R134a lethality incident (George Goble)

Yeah I know about your handy devices measuring ambient temps, saturated temps, superheat and all that. And you are correct R134 is less efficent than R12 at higher ambient temps and will never replace R12's cooling properties 100% but according to the scientific data and pressure temperate charts they are almost dead even until you reach about 95* then R134 becomes considerably less efficient as the temps go up. But nowhere near 20 to 25%. I'd say in reality 10-15%. Besides even if you sit in traffic over an hour at a time unless you have a big front mount blocking the airflow and adding more heat to the condensors I still don't see that much of a temperature drop. I'll take 5* off of 38 anytime that still gives me 43* vent temps at idle in traffic. There is an old saying, men lie, women lie, but numbers don't and the pressure temperature chart says otherwise. You know your stuff but lets not confuse and discourage others from giving it a try. It may not have worked for you even wiith all your high tech equipment but others have had much success with it and no complaints. I know I have.

Pete
 

Attachments

Unfortunately, it does not work for me in my car, everything is new, and this summer i will take new readings with a substitute. I know head pressures I had were about 245 psi when the a/c performance began to suffer. Temp into the condensor was 145f temp out about 100f, so 45 degrees across the condensor. On the same day went to mu 134a minivan and got 65 degree temp across the condensor. So i would say its a better system compared to the buick. The chart is handy to have thanks for posting.
 
Norbs I completely agree. The key to good vent temps at idle is good airflow. A better condenser helps but it is not going to do much without staying cool. Which fans are you using?
 
I am using twin 11" derale fans from summit racing with 265 watt motors, and they are energy pigs, but it they are tough to fit in, as i had to cut them down in the center to make the twins fit in the width of the rad.
 
Sam thats great info, however based on my low side pressures of about 34 psi as i recall, and high pressures 245 ish on (maybe 90 degree ambient temp.) I would base it being volume insufficient from the compressor, as the suction side is too high. That quickboost addivite maybe helpful from the looks of those charts. Pete, whats your call on these numbers?

I just found a nice chart how humidity effects r-134a and its temps.

http://www.coolearthinc.com/PDFs/humidityTemperaturePressureRelationship.pdf
 
This work for me

Sam thats great info, however based on my low side pressures of about 34 psi as i recall, and high pressures 245 ish on (maybe 90 degree ambient temp.) I would base it being volume insufficient from the compressor, as the suction side is too high. That quickboost addivite maybe helpful from the looks of those charts. Pete, whats your call on these numbers?

I just found a nice chart how humidity effects r-134a and its temps.

http://www.coolearthinc.com/PDFs/humidityTemperaturePressureRelationship.pdf

Ok this is what I do... No matter what the low side gauge shows, if you have sufficient airflow across the condensor and no non condensable gas in your system, i.e air, I try to shoot for no more than 2 to 2 1/2 times the ambient on the high side gauge. So for an example you gave a number of 90* ambient temp. Then on the high side I want between 200-225 psi ( if you have sufficient airflow). There is an exact corelation between condensor airflow and vent temps and maybe that may be why my system works for me. I am using Dodge Intrepid dual fans. If that is not enough and your alternator has the capacity to handle it you may want to invest in a low amp pusher fan. On a 85-90* day my gauges read something like 25-30 psi on the low side and no more than 210 on the high side. What I typically try to do though is control the enviroment in which I do my initial charge and the rise in pressure will follow accordingly that way I take the ambient heat out of the equation. For example, I will typically charge a system in the shade at about 70-75* ambient temps and try to get my readings between 22-26psi on the low side and about 170-190 on the high side. As the temps rise your pressure will follow accordingly. You will probably have to turn you low pressure switch down some. Hey it's worth a try.

As a side not you should have the fans wired to run continuously when the ac is running or get you a designated fan to cool the condensor or as on some modern cars both.

Pete
 
Where are all the o-rings located. I've never had my system apart other than removing the compressor so, I know there are 2 o-rings there. I'm clueless about A/C systems so I really appreciate this post.

Your o-rings are located at each point that an air conditioner component is connected to the system. The inlet/outlet of your dryer, inlet/outlet of the compressor, etc. Follow the a/c lines and everywhere you see a hex fitting on the line, that's where an o-ring is located.

Bruce '87 Grand National
 
just want to say great posting, i did my a/c today with all the advice.. and it feels good, i still need the temp gauge though..

but.... somehow its stuck on bi-level? it will go to heater only etc. but on max a/c i am wasting cold air down below by the center?

is there a seperate vacuum line for bilevel? sorry for the hi-jack
 
just want to say great posting, i did my a/c today with all the advice.. and it feels good, i still need the temp gauge though..

but.... somehow its stuck on bi-level? it will go to heater only etc. but on max a/c i am wasting cold air down below by the center?

is there a seperate vacuum line for bilevel? sorry for the hi-jack


1st assure you have vacuum at the source, then follow it into the passenger compartment lookinf for leaks... possibly at the control switch.
 
My AC has not been converted to R134a and it blows warm. The previous owner told me that he had it charged once and it was cold for a week, then warm again. SO, I know I have a leak somewhere.

I plan to replace the dryer and compressor for sure, but my question is.....what do I do first? Put dye in and find the leak? Or just crack it open and replace the dryer and compressor? Can I just crack it open? Or do I need to evacuate it first? Assuming I can get a vac pump from AZ?
 
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