sealing center support ?

[Lee O. Thompson]

I would like to know what people are using for sealing rings on the center support (GN). Factory steel or 400 teflon and why you prefer what you use. Thanks All replies are welcome.

 

[INEEDAGN]

Here’s a thread I started on the subject a couple years back. Hope it helps

Direct drum rings

Short version: had to hone some minor ring wear out of an otherwise cherry drum (from a low mile trans) and it measures about .001-.0015 out of round with a bore gauge. Didn't measure the actual dimension (though I can) but it wasn't a lot of honing. I'm sure it will physically function fine...

turbobuick.com

 

[Steve V]

Still using Teflon. Husek says not too but I have no issues. You can also scarf cut them to seal an irregular surface...I don't do that .

 

[WE4]

A 400 one wont work. Wont fit. Wrong diameter
A Teflon or Servon from a A470 Chrysler works well and a 4L60 E stator ring can work as well.
What matters is the inside diameter of the direct drum and a full, not slotted Teflon ring is the way to go. Less friction wear as well.
Yes it is more work but most good things are. It will "compensate" a little more than most.
LEARN EXACTLY HOW a true Teflon ring WORKS. The PRINCIPALS behind it. Then learn the limits and negatives to using a cast iron or other metal based ring. Once comprehended correctly , it will be blatently obvious to you what and why you would run a full Teflon ring !!!
An 1/8th inch Servon Compressor Ring ..... Hand Fit to each depth of the DD ,,,,,,,,,,, is the cats meow tho…..Nothing better than that !!!
Very expensive and time consuming, tho….

Let me correct myself...… A 400 SCARF CUT STOCK TEFLON RING will not work.

WE4

 

[TexasT]

Do you have a link to the 1/8" servon compressor ring?

Haven't tried the Teflon on the center support. The iron looked good and the mating surface didn't catch a finger nail so mine has iron.

I'll look up the A470 Chrysler and get some to have on hand for the next build.

 

[turbo nasty]

Do you have a link to the 1/8" servon compressor ring?

Haven't tried the Teflon on the center support. The iron looked good and the mating surface didn't catch a finger nail so mine has iron.

I'll look up the A470 Chrysler and get some to have on hand for the next build.

Need a shrinking tool for the teflon

 

[TexasT]

Some cutouts from a two liter plastic bottle and some hose clamps , or electrical tape to size em works pretty good.

 

[WE4]

The 470 Chrysler ones are special order. You probably wont just "find" them and it may be the 413 Chrysler. One of the front wheel drives.
The solid 4L80E ones work well sized correctly, and at the level of performance.
ALL should be HAND fit.
Sizers help but final should be hand fit then tested to stretch & seat.
It is an art, no doubt about it.
The Servon ones we had made for all trans' , but you need to machine center support as they are 1/8th inch wide. (technicaly .12867 wide)
C6, C4, AOD, 727, 940,400, 2004r
I'm just relaying what we had the best luck with across the stock to performance board. Different levels of power & performance of each build requires different levels of attention. Pressures being run effect this as well. If you have a stock rebuild 2004r just about any ring will surfice. In this instance, the ring is more forgiving . Now, If your building a 9 second trans, more attention must be paid to certain points. The way Dave does it with Iron rings is even more critical because you have a damn near perfect tolerance that has to be met.
This is true across the board.
WE4

 

[WE4]

Oh and NEVER scarf cut any stock appearing Direct clutch 2004r sealing ring. EVER!




WE4

 

[WE4]

Here’s a thread I started on the subject a couple years back. Hope it helps

Direct drum rings

Short version: had to hone some minor ring wear out of an otherwise cherry drum (from a low mile trans) and it measures about .001-.0015 out of round with a bore gauge. Didn't measure the actual dimension (though I can) but it wasn't a lot of honing. I'm sure it will physically function fine...

turbobuick.com

BUT...…….
What did it measure top to bottom within the bore?
In other words what is the "taper" in the bore front to back?
Sometimes the ring bore is different among the 3 rings......
Seen it....
WE4

 

[INEEDAGN]

I’ve been on this snipe hunt before. In the thread I posted above. All those Chrysler rings, 604/727/470/670 whatever all get you to industry number 92181T which is actually the 4L80E ring regardless of what you are ordering it for. I’ll stand by this statement until someone stands up and proves me wrong. The Chryslers ALL came with iron rings factory. Someone figured out the 4L80 rings fit. Industry began listing them as such. Change my mind.


This is not to say that different trans supply houses don’t have different sources for Teflon rings and may be a variance depending on what place you order from.

 

[INEEDAGN]

BUT...…….
What did it measure top to bottom within the bore?
In other words what is the "taper" in the bore front to back?
Sometimes the ring bore is different among the 3 rings......
Seen it....
WE4

It wasn’t tapered and actually had very little honing done to it. Pretty sure I was the first one in that trans too. During the course of that thread above I measured a bunch of drums for taper and out of round and was surprised at how shitty they all were from gm. Don’t know why I was surprised to find that lol. It’s got iron rings in it. Working perfectly right up until the owner sold the car and I lost track of it. Probably a mid 11 car nothing too serious though

 

[INEEDAGN]

The thing I’ve taken away from all these conversations about rings is that the solid Teflons don’t handle being overheated. If we look at the source application for the rings, the 4L80e, they came with solid Teflon and the aftermarket has stepped in with “better” alternatives, namely a Vespel plastic ring and the transgo 4L80e-htrk high temperature ring kit which is a scarf cut ring with an expander under it. People like Steve will probably never have a problem with solid Teflon because he has pretty good control over where his builds end up and ensures adequate cooling etc. People like Dave and Lonnie are shipping these things all over the country to people who’ve never even seen a turbo Buick and are putting them in street rods and other vehicles and the customer’s knowledge of trans cooling is hit or miss at best. They can’t run solid Teflons because if it gets hot once the directs are done. In that situation anything is better than solid Teflon especially since the engine in front of it is maybe 350-400 hp at most.

I’m also nearly certain that one or more persons has figured out a better solution than all the publicly known options and has (rightfully) chosen to remain tight lipped about their findings. Even Dave’s availability of an oversized iron ring is rightfully kept to himself as to what it’s normally used in. Most hobbyists don’t have the ability to machine the bore properly anyway.

I do love these discussions though

 

[bison]

I’ve used most mentioned including scarf cutting some rings. Same result when dual feeding. Direct clutch setup and pressure plate is just as important. The only pressure plates I’ve seen that were not purpose made for high pressures that seemed to work ok are the assembly line ones. The replacement ones availble are junk. I even tested a cold rolled steel pressure plate that was laser cut and it didn’t warp like the commonly found ones.


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[bison]

Still using Teflon. Husek says not too but I have no issues. You can also scarf cut them to seal an irregular surface...I don't do that .

I wouldn’t scarf cut the commonly used 4L80 ring.


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[INEEDAGN]

I can vouch for replacement pressure plates being junk. Maybe had 1k miles on it

 

[Steve V]

I wouldn’t scarf cut the commonly used 4L80 ring.


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And I don't.....

 

[Steve V]

Direct clutch setup and pressure plate is just as important. The only pressure plates I’ve seen that were not purpose made for high pressures that seemed to work ok are the assembly line ones. The replacement ones availble are junk. I even tested a cold rolled steel pressure plate that was laser cut and it didn’t warp like the commonly found ones.


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I learned that from you for sure. I don't have many 200's out there with the power level of engines that come out of your shop. Now you have your plate, someone copied it, then I copied it as well. So we have the direct thing well in check I think. i know you and I have had some pretty good tech chats over the years....learned a bunch still learning too.

 

[Steve V]

The thing I’ve taken away from all these conversations about rings is that the solid Teflons don’t handle being overheated. If we look at the source application for the rings, the 4L80e, they came with solid Teflon and the aftermarket has stepped in with “better” alternatives, namely a Vespel plastic ring and the transgo 4L80e-htrk high temperature ring kit which is a scarf cut ring with an expander under it. People like Steve will probably never have a problem with solid Teflon because he has pretty good control over where his builds end up and ensures adequate cooling etc. People like Dave and Lonnie are shipping these things all over the country to people who’ve never even seen a turbo Buick and are putting them in street rods and other vehicles and the customer’s knowledge of trans cooling is hit or miss at best. They can’t run solid Teflons because if it gets hot once the directs are done. In that situation anything is better than solid Teflon especially since the engine in front of it is maybe 350-400 hp at most.

I’m also nearly certain that one or more persons has figured out a better solution than all the publicly known options and has (rightfully) chosen to remain tight lipped about their findings. Even Dave’s availability of an oversized iron ring is rightfully kept to himself as to what it’s normally used in. Most hobbyists don’t have the ability to machine the bore properly anyway.

I do love these discussions though

I just checked out that part number...interesting maybe something to look into.

I absolutely will not use an iron rings as the direct drum is a finite drum with not many laying around. I have 2 units here that need drums...$$$$$

I have a nice disclaimer that goes on all invoices inregards to trans cooling and care. If it comes back overheated it's almost always not warranty. Does not mean they are paying retail but I certainly am not eating the repair. With todays tech we have videos and pics so it's easy to demonstrate on my end how to set the TV, verify line rise before it's even driven. If the customer doesn't seem capable I won't do an over the counter unit.

RC put me through his tranny class 5 or 6 years ago on Sunday. He basically learned from Bruce. He also has seen most others units and takes awesome notes--LOL--he taught me that the teflon ring in it's relaxed state must be bigger than the bore. He feels that once we stretch it then resize it will want to go to it's orginal shape. I was using some 4l60 rings years ago IIRC they did not have bore tension before I stretched them out to install them. But all units I had them on survived to my knowledge, but they where not hi power units.

Sizing them is no biggie. I found some tools in the tool room at the stealership and they where not 200 tools but they helped a lot. Rc has some neat ones but I really needed them since I had my own way.

Good thread guys! This trans is 30+ years old not many secrets left IMO

 

[INEEDAGN]

Yeah it really says something about the solid Teflons when our bore is smaller than the 80e and people have still reported them wiped out/shrunk by excessive heat. I can easily see it being a problem in the 80e with people using their trucks like a tractor. We saw all kinds of heat related problems on 60/80e stuff back in the trans shop days. Called them “crispy critters” and threw away everything plastic and some stuff that wasn’t. For those of you that don’t know many real life rednecks you can’t understand the mentality of “my Chevy will pull anything”.

I know the vespel plastic ring won’t fit in OE form because I was messing around with one in a drum at the trans shop one day. But I really should have taken one home with me because it may be trimmable to fit and/or drum bore resized for one. It’s on my “to do” list. (For those that don’t know, my “to do” list is more of a hypothetical list of things I would do if I had the time and not something I’ll actually do in the next few years).