Tall ball joints

[Ttype6]

There is a new source for upper and lower low friction ball joints with .5" longer studs. Summit house brand has them listed as circle track joints. They're not offered as an option for g bodies in a search so you will have to type in the part numbers in their search function.

Upper = 77-1091002 $39.97
Lower = 77-1130002 $39.97

 

[UNGN]

They also have a +1" Lower:

Lower sum-771130003

I bought my Pro-forged +.5 uppers and Lowers from Summit, which come with good fitting Boots, so they might be worth the extra $10 or so each vs. the summit brand, but good luck finding them. I bought them and I can't even find what I bought again by searching.

I am very happy with the results of this mod. I finally got my LS1 brake swap on the road and it sweet.

You are totally correct. If you are trying to find parts for a G-body from summit, you really have to know what you are looking for, which is sad.

 

[1984 t-type]

what do these longer ball joints acheive ?

 

[turbofrank]

^

 

[charlief1]

The factory steering geometry is a bit screwy and the taller ball joints correct it to some degree.

 

[1984 t-type]

Will this work with stock control arms ? I'm looking to upgrade my suspension as we speak. Just ordered moog 5658 & 5413 springs and bilstein shocks with nitto nt555r for rear rubber

 

[Ttype6]

what do these longer ball joints acheive ?

They make the spindle taller which raises the upper control arm's spindle mounting point. If you draw a line from the center of the upper control arm's bushing to the center of the ball joint,you'll find that the line will travel up hill as it moves from the ball joint to the bushing. We need this line to travel downward to help the car turn. The lower joint also moves the steering arm upward because it is part of the spindle. This can greatly help or eliminate bump steer. Since the longer lower joint lowers the car,it raises the roll center and this is good for cornering.

 

[UNGN]

Tall ball joints don't have many downsides and have very high bang for the buck.

Tall lowers help fix bump steer, tall uppers will improve the camber curve. Tall lowers can lower a car while maintaining a taller spring with more shock travel for a better ride for a given drop.

The Tall uppers work with stock and aftermarket control arms with no mods. Tall lowers will swap right in, too, but the brake dust shields need to be opened up by at least the extra height of the ball joint, but otherwise they are a press-out, press-in swap.

 

[Dunebilly]

if you use tall uppers should you get the lower ones ?

 

[Ttype6]

if you use tall uppers should you get the lower ones ?

Yes,because the lowers greatly reduce bump steer and increase the height of the spindle by 1/2". This is another step in the direction of helping the car turn. However,they lower the front 1/2".

There is another way to more completely remove bump steer without lowering the front of the car..
http://www.spohn.net/shop/1978-1987...-G-Body.html?gclid=CNKnmoyysccCFQuQaQodxIADrQ

 

[UNGN]

There is another way to more completely remove bump steer without lowering the front of the car..
http://www.spohn.net/shop/1978-1987...-G-Body.html?gclid=CNKnmoyysccCFQuQaQodxIADrQ

The problem with those is they have a lot of adjustability down, but the problem is outer tie rod ends need to go up.

Another solution is a Howe adjustable height centerlink for about $150 (Small Metric). Lowering the inside does the same thing as raising the outsides.

I completely eliminated the B-b0dy 12" brake spindle bumpsteer using this centerlink, and B-body spindle bump steer is much worse than factory spindle bumpsteer.

 

[captrob]

Another solution is a Howe adjustable height centerlink for about $150 (Small Metric). Lowering the inside does the same thing as raising the outsides.

I completely eliminated the B-b0dy 12" brake spindle bumpsteer using this centerlink, and B-body spindle bump steer is much worse than factory spindle bumpsteer.

Did you use taller lowers and the Howe centerlink to eliminate the bump with the B-Body spindles? I just ordered the taller ball joints and will install this weekend. I guess I'll measure bump after to see if I need to lower the inner tie rod. Curious... how much does the Howe centerlink lower the tie rod mounting point? And are you using adjustable outer tierods to fine tune it?
Thanks for all the info and links on this thread. Its nice to know there are fairly easy ways to fix tweak the geometry.

Thanks, Rob

 

[Ttype6]

The problem with those is they have a lot of adjustability down, but the problem is outer tie rod ends need to go up.

I thought the same thing,but the heim joint is so much thinner than the tie rod end that it can move upward more than enough to correct bump steer. The center of the ball inside the stock tie rod is a good distance downward from the steering arm it is connected to.

 

[UNGN]

Did you use taller lowers and the Howe centerlink to eliminate the bump with the B-Body spindles? I just ordered the taller ball joints and will install this weekend. I guess I'll measure bump after to see if I need to raise the inner tie rod. Curious... how much does the Howe centerlink raise the tie rod mounting point? And are you using adjustable outer tierods to fine tune it?
Thanks for all the info and links on this thread. Its nice to know there are fairly easy ways to fix tweak the geometry.

Thanks, Rob

The Adjustable centerlink can lower the inner Tie rods by about 1" and you can fine tune it with shims. The B-body spindles need about 1.5" to get rid of the bumpsteer. You get about 1/2" with the Tall LBJ's and the other inch from lowering the centerlink. When you get close, there is actually a large range of very little bumpsteer in the range of suspension travel you care about. A little bumpsteer at full droop or compression where the LCA hits the frame because the snubber is gone doesn't matter if the car never sees these.

The factory spindles will lose most of their bumpsteer with just tall LBJ's. My 2+2 has zero bumpsteer with just tall Lower Ball Joints.

 

[1984 t-type]

So are you saying that with tall lower ball joints there is no need for a bump steer kit ? not questioning you just trying to get a little less inconfused.

 

[UNGN]

So are you saying that with tall lower ball joints there is no need for a bump steer kit ? not questioning you just trying to get a little less inconfused.

With stock spindles there should be very little bumpsteer with just Tall Lower Ball joints. You may be able to measure some at the extents of travel, but probably won't notice any while driving, ever.

My 2+2 hits rough pavement at 160+ mph and the tracks straight with zero steering movement or input with 255 wide tires in front, and all it has is LBJ's to affect steering geometry. My T-type with B spindles was swimming in Bumpsteer with the same wheels/tires. I hated expansion joints because the car reacted to them and rough roads sucked. Tall LBJ's and Adjustable centerlink and it drove like my 2+2, even with the B-spindles.

 

[captrob]

The Adjustable centerlink can lower the inner Tie rods by about 1" and you can fine tune it with shims. The B-body spindles need about 1.5" to get rid of the bumpsteer. You get about 1/2" with the Tall LBJ's and the other inch from lowering the centerlink. When you get close, there is actually a large range of very little bumpsteer in the range of suspension travel you care about. A little bumpsteer at full droop or compression where the LCA hits the frame because the snubber is gone doesn't matter if the car never sees these.

The factory spindles will lose most of their bumpsteer with just tall LBJ's. My 2+2 has zero bumpsteer with just tall Lower Ball Joints.

Awesome info. I'm finally going to get the tall spindle conversion settled down.
Thanks, Rob

 

[captrob]

With stock spindles there should be very little bumpsteer with just Tall Lower Ball joints. You may be able to measure some at the extents of travel, but probably won't notice any while driving, ever.

My 2+2 hits rough pavement at 160+ mph and the tracks straight with zero steering movement or input with 255 wide tires in front, and all it has is LBJ's to affect steering geometry. My T-type with B spindles was swimming in Bumpsteer with the same wheels/tires. I hated expansion joints because the car reacted to them and rough roads sucked. Tall LBJ's and Adjustable centerlink and it drove like my 2+2, even with the B-spindles.

Hey UNGN,
I need to replace the ball joint boots on both new taller uppers and lowers. Have you found any taller boots that fit tight and/or last longer during harsher use?
Thanks, Rob

 

[Ken Adams]

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[Ttype6]

Hey UNGN,
I need to replace the ball joint boots on both new taller uppers and lowers. Have you found any taller boots that fit tight and/or last longer during harsher use?
Thanks, Rob

You've discovered the dirty little secret of ball joints described as race and/or low friction. These are typically the description given to tall studded ball joints. There are three types I know of.

Howe Racing
QA1
Summit House racing ball joints

They don't usually come with boots. Sometimes,if you purchase low friction or race ball joints as a package installed on some control arms,you might get boots with them. They won't be the correct boot because their are no boots made for them and they are not machined to fit any known boot.

Their is one low friction long studded upper ball joint that comes with a boot.
Afco 20032-2lf.

The only company that offers standard friction,yet quite smooth operating,tall studded upper and lower ball joint with boots is Proforged.
Upper 101-10020
Lower 101-10048

These are very nice pieces.