to port or not to port.....

[mikey blacks]

well its that time where im going to tear down the top of the motor, my spare set of stock heads are going to a local shop tobe freshened with all new parts & extensive porting done to them,, my question is does the lower intake need to be port matched as well ????
I prolly now this answer already but just wanna make sure....

 

[suicide six]

Does it have to----no.To get most out of your heads------yes.If done by vendor plan ahead and send it out.Turn times are usually lengthy.

 

[SloGN]

what gains are there

how much is there to gain for porting the intake? I don't really see any gains from porting the intake since the runners are so short and it's a boosted application. I understand the area behind the valves and all when porting. but how much of a gain come from opening up the intake ports. other than slowing down the air speed of the incoming charge since it's in a slighly smaller area. i will agree that smoothing the walls out is a gain to get rid of turbulance for linear flow. i always thought you wanting to keep the air velocity up in the ports tho.


i'm just a dummy tring to learn it all so forgive me

 

[suicide six]

A couple tenths maybe.Egr port is removed and can be still functional.Had mine done by champion and they really opened the thing up.If you are looking to add on now or down the road,do it since its already off.Same hp can be obtained with less boost,heat.I think thats the main advantage.

 

[mikey blacks]

well my main objective is to do it once...& since the intake will be off already, might as well......

 

[VadersV6]

The intake runners taper down to a size quite a bit smaller than the stock head ports. If you simply port about 1.5" deep into the exits of the intake runners, they will end up alot larger without having to hog out the entire runner. I did this to my intake and SOTP was very much improved. Its not just a matter of whether or not this works on TR's. Its fundamental to all engines. No point in getting your heads to flow 230cfm if your intake runners cant come close. You shouldnt look at the intake runners and the head ports as individual entities. You should port with the idea that the intake runner starts at the intake plenum and ends at the valve. Thats how the porting experts look at it...the ones that matter. Not some "just hog it out to the gasket" hacks.

 

[mikey blacks]

well, when i mean extensive porting don't get me wrong, we do what werks on both ends, me & the car..so i try not togo overboard all the time..

 

[LV GN]

have the heads ported to felpro 1200 intake gaskets and buy the champion stock ported intake for less then $300.00. the power is in the heads.

 

[SloGN]

what i would like to do is a comparsion flow test of a ported intake VS a stock intake BUT... the flow measurements being measured out of the inake valve to truly see how there is a gain from porting a intake. using a ported 8445 heads on both intakes.

also to measure to see how much pressure has to be applied to the stock intake to get it to flow as good as the ported intake ( if there is a big difference in flow ) .

call me crazy.

 

[mikey blacks]

so if i port the heads , the champion stock intake will work???.........or am i better off just porting the stock unit i have......
This is what my plans are for the car .i'm tearing down the top of the motor.1 have the heads ported & freshened w/ new parts.2.HAVE THE TRANS. FRESHENED.3.do a new cam & lifters.4.new doghouse & tb..5.have my headers coated, {there extremley ugly}, but where????..6. maybe a new turbo..7.maybe a new exhaust...
Basically i'm thinking off the top of my head, i know there will be other things thats gonna need a replacing, but this is just the basic's...
As far as cam's go, solid or roller ?? i know the roller is the way togo, but i don't wanna have to constantly keep adjusting the valves...plz remember that this is a street car, not a race car....any suggestions???? thx board

 

[VadersV6]

Why would you have to keep adjusting the valves with a roller? As long as its a hydraulic cam, you wont have to.
What kind of reputation does this shop have with porting heads? Are they specialists? I would really recommend you dont have a general machine shop port the heads. More often than not, shops like this dont have any real head porting experts. A general machine shop usually just has a guy that hogs the port out to the gasket, and doesnt really understand what he's doing. Porting is a science, and if you dont approach it that way, with a flow bench and years of experience, you can end up doing more damage than benefit. Its like trusting a gynocologist to do brain surgery on you. Yeah the gynocologist went to med school and has a basic understanding of the different lobes, but no way should he be touching your brain.
By far the best bang for the buck would be to buy a set of champion irons. How much are they charging for the porting?
A friend brought by a set of ported TR heads for me to look at (cause I did this stuff for many years) that were done by some guy on the TR boards (I think) with a good reputation. After looking the heads over, I couldnt understand why the guy had a good rep at all. The work was beyond terrible. They would look great to someone who doesnt know better, which is unfortunate, and god knows how many people are running these crap heads on their car. Looking the heads over, I saw one chamber would be unshrouded around the intake valve almost 1/8" more than another...they were really all over the place. He even unshrouded beyond the cylinder ring on the head gasket. The chamber volumes must have varied by 5cc's or more judging by what I was looking at. (the valves were buried in the seats at all different depths which made it even worse) The entire runners had been ported, but they were terribly inconsistent and obviously done by someone who simply didnt have a clue. The runner heights were all over the place, runner volumes all over the place, the short side radii were all jagged and disgusting....and he paid like $600 for this work. Plus the guy had ported an intake. Not only was the work really ugly, but the guy had failed to remove all the old carbon and grease, and then he went and glass beaded the intake like this....there was glass dust stuck in carbon and grease in so many crevices I couldnt believe it. The EGR pocket was PACKED with glass beads. 10 minutes on my friends motor and this intake would have killed the engine. I also saw that the valve heights varied by 1/8". This might as well be a mile on cylinder heads without an adjustable valvetrain. My friend returned the heads and told the guy how bad they were and he didnt want to put these on his car. The guy said he had never gotten any complaints before. That is pretty scary. I wonder how many people out there have glass dust circulating through their engine, wiping out main and rod bearings, cam sensors, CAMS, oil pumps, rings, cam bearings, cylinder walls, lifters, valve guides, valve stems, rocker arms, seals...goes on and on. Wish I knew who this guy was so I could tell him to retire from the engine machining world until he gets a clue.
You get what you pay for. Either take your heads to be ported by a specialist, and then take the heads to another shop with a flow bench and have them independantly test the results, or go with a good CNC'd package thats unbeatable like champion. But dont ever let joe shmoe port your heads.

 

[onefastcar]

I say hog em out clean up the casting marks and lets all not worry about building nascar race engines, lets be honest if you go his route you're talkin 10g's in an engine now lets come back down to earth (PORT MATCHING IS A GOOD THING) it will be better than what you have on your stock heads and leave him to build the next 4 sec ride.

 

[VadersV6]

I say hog em out clean up the casting marks and lets all not worry about building nascar race engines, lets be honest if you go his route you're talkin 10g's in an engine now lets come back down to earth (PORT MATCHING IS A GOOD THING) it will be better than what you have on your stock heads and leave him to build the next 4 sec ride.

Im not talking about building a nascar engine. I'm not talking about getting 400cfm out of an intake runner. Im talking about getting what you pay for and separating shadetree mechanic myths from reality. Port matching doesnt guarantee anything. It doesnt guarantee more flow or more hp. What good is a swell in the runner? You match the intake runner exit and head port inlet, and all you end up with is a swell in the port which will only benefit power if there was a big runner misalignment before. Im not talking about 10G's in anything. You can have a guy who charges $800 for rebuilt heads with a crap port job that hurts flow, efficiency, mileage, power, port signal, velocity, torque or $800 for rebuilt heads with a kick ass CNC port job, or done by hand by someone who knows what he's doing. It all depends on who's doing the work. We also cant forget how much power there is in a quality combustion chamber, valve pocket, seat, the valve cut, etc. There is so much more than the runner, and a good guy will focus on everything and get it done right for the same amount of money.
And he didnt say he was doing a gasket match job. He said "extensive porting". I'm not an expert with many facets of cars/hot rods, but I machined and built something like 12,000 sets of cylinder heads of all kinds you can imagine in the 4 years I was only doing cylinder heads, and have some serious hours into porting, and I learned from very bright, qualified people. The things I saw on the dyno through those years really made it sink in.....the difference cylinder heads make, and a good port job from a bad port job. There was one time we saw 180hp difference on a winston west engine between the old builders heads and ours. So what is your expertise based on? Something you did with a dremel in your driveway? The guy is asking for advise, and Im giving it to him. Im telling him if he plays his cards right, he can get what he's paying for, instead of some hack who just wants to spend 2 hours removing all the flash, ****ing everything up and getting paid. You can spend the same amount of money and get something real for it. Whats your issue with things being done right?
You "hog them out" and youll end up with dead spots in the ports, different velocity in each port (which leads to detonation and A/F problems you cant fix when 1 cylinder is filling way more than the one next to it), an engine that idles like ****, A/F variations between cylinders that you cant see or tune out properly without 6 O2 sensors...never mind. Enjoy your hogged out heads.

 

[onefastcar]

Port unalignment is the single biggest turbulence inducer on a head more articles have been written up on this issue alone i think you are confused on this matter i've seen dyno results on many port matched heads with runners and bowls untouched producing from 25 to 50 hp increases and I'm sure your car will fit perfect in my rear view asta lavista baby.

 

[VadersV6]

Port unalignment is the single biggest turbulence inducer on a head more articles have been written up on this issue alone i think you are confused on this matter i've seen dyno results on many port matched heads with runners and bowls untouched producing from 25 to 50 hp increases and I'm sure your car will fit perfect in my rear view asta lavista baby.

If I put time and money in my car toward going fast, Im sure it would be a runner. What your car vs. my car has to do with the subject Im not sure, but I havent done anything to this car other than get it running right as a daily driver. You've seen dyno reports in magazines. Ive RUN dynos. Youve done hogging out and gasket matches. Ive done real work with flow benches on real race motors.....since you brought it up....nascar engines, as well as many other race and street motors. I did my first valve job on my 63 nova when I was 12, back in '83. Im mentioned in this months issue of 5.0 for my.....PORTING work. 4 years ago I beat the best in the business in hp with my intake manifold design for cobras. 60rwhp gain at redline with no low rpm loss on naturally aspirated, stock heads/cams motors. Unheard of, and I didnt do it by hogging out anything. I didnt even open up the runners. Plus my daddy can beat up yours.
Like I said, if you have a port misalignment, you will see power gains. But once a runner, from intake to valve is aligned, should now put you at zero...a starting point. If you were behind the starting point because of it not being right, that doesnt mean that a gasket match kicks ass and is almost as good as a real port job. Dont know who you're arguing with on that point. The subject here in this thread, is ****ty port jobs versus good ones. I know you're a proponent of ****ty ones, but thats not how I roll.
Turbulence is not always a bad thing, (Laminar flow isnt be all end all god of flow patterns...sometimes you want it) and I have to argue with the point that an intake runner/head port misalignment causes more turbulence than anything. A poor short side radius/pocket/seat/shroud can cause ALOT more damage to flow where it counts the most. If I relied on magazine editors for all my tech knowledge, I would have a spiralmax in my intake and 4.88 gears with a 6000 stall converter. Most of those guys studied journalism in college...not 4 hours a day in auto shop.
Stop reading articles and using them as your rule of measure.
You want a mild gain and your ports are misaligned? Do a gasket match.
You want to do "extensive porting"? Dont hog out AND do a gasket match...dont see how you can do both like you insisted he should do. If you do "extensive" porting, do it right. How are you arguing with that point?

 

[22lbChevelle]

Good stuff! I'm in the middle of lapping my valves as we speak. Budget rebuild for the motor. And boy should you guys see the valves I'm starting with.

 

[VadersV6]

Damn someone must have pissed in my cheerios yesterday, Jesus!@%$
What an angry MF

 

[LV GN]

so if i port the heads , the champion stock intake will work???.........or am i better off just porting the stock unit i have......
This is what my plans are for the car .i'm tearing down the top of the motor.1 have the heads ported & freshened w/ new parts.2.HAVE THE TRANS. FRESHENED.3.do a new cam & lifters.4.new doghouse & tb..5.have my headers coated, {there extremley ugly}, but where????..6. maybe a new turbo..7.maybe a new exhaust...
Basically i'm thinking off the top of my head, i know there will be other things thats gonna need a replacing, but this is just the basic's...
As far as cam's go, solid or roller ?? i know the roller is the way togo, but i don't wanna have to constantly keep adjusting the valves...plz remember that this is a street car, not a race car....any suggestions???? thx board

i used to port the intake for my customers. for the time it took to port and i had to send the intake out for welding the egr closed.(if you want to) its just easier to get the champion intake. they do a killer job(cnc'ed) and its less then $300 with shipping. if you have ever seen one you would know what i mean!

 

[ledzeppac]

If I put time and money in my car toward going fast, Im sure it would be a runner. What your car vs. my car has to do with the subject Im not sure, but I havent done anything to this car other than get it running right as a daily driver. You've seen dyno reports in magazines. Ive RUN dynos. Youve done hogging out and gasket matches. Ive done real work with flow benches on real race motors.....since you brought it up....nascar engines, as well as many other race and street motors. I did my first valve job on my 63 nova when I was 12, back in '83. Im mentioned in this months issue of 5.0 for my.....PORTING work. 4 years ago I beat the best in the business in hp with my intake manifold design for cobras. 60rwhp gain at redline with no low rpm loss on naturally aspirated, stock heads/cams motors. Unheard of, and I didnt do it by hogging out anything. I didnt even open up the runners. Plus my daddy can beat up yours.
Like I said, if you have a port misalignment, you will see power gains. But once a runner, from intake to valve is aligned, should now put you at zero...a starting point. If you were behind the starting point because of it not being right, that doesnt mean that a gasket match kicks ass and is almost as good as a real port job. Dont know who you're arguing with on that point. The subject here in this thread, is ****ty port jobs versus good ones. I know you're a proponent of ****ty ones, but thats not how I roll.
Turbulence is not always a bad thing, (Laminar flow isnt be all end all god of flow patterns...sometimes you want it) and I have to argue with the point that an intake runner/head port misalignment causes more turbulence than anything. A poor short side radius/pocket/seat/shroud can cause ALOT more damage to flow where it counts the most. If I relied on magazine editors for all my tech knowledge, I would have a spiralmax in my intake and 4.88 gears with a 6000 stall converter. Most of those guys studied journalism in college...not 4 hours a day in auto shop.
Stop reading articles and using them as your rule of measure.
You want a mild gain and your ports are misaligned? Do a gasket match.
You want to do "extensive porting"? Dont hog out AND do a gasket match...dont see how you can do both like you insisted he should do. If you do "extensive" porting, do it right. How are you arguing with that point?

So what you are trying to say is I can give you a set of heads and you will port them for me for about $200 :biggrin:

 

[VadersV6]

So what you are trying to say is I can give you a set of heads and you will port them for me for about $200 :biggrin:

Ill do the onefastcar special for $200. I use a chisel, a file and elmers glue to raise the ports.