Premature Walbro Failure

[A2000RICH]

guys-------here are a few walbro pump tests---------about the history of the pumps-------most of them are new stock from ATR--------about a year ago when they had the auction i bought most all the buick related items-------i literally came home with three trucks loaded to the brim--------in the midst there were several cases of walbro fuel pumps--------i have high confidence that they are "real" and not counterfeit but i cannot guarantee it-------please don't hesitate to ask questions of anything that you don't think is clear--------i realize that as with most mass produced items that there are variations even if it is an ISO certified facility-------without doing LOTS of similar tests and averaging the data i cannot guarantee that there will not be variations from the results that i am showing------i can guarantee the the numbers that i measured are extremely accurate subject to a 1 GPH rounding---at this time i cannot quantify what if any break-in or long term use has on pump performance-------first chart is a 242 series pump--------second is a 307 series-----third and fourth is a pair of 340 pumps-------fifth and sixth is a pair of reds pumps that appear to be 340's but have the numbers ground off so i can't really say what they are for sure------they do exhibit some really good numbers at high pressure compared to all the 340's i have measured--------one of them was used and the other was right out of the box----------anyone have any pumps that you would like to have measured i will be glad to do it for you OR if you are planning on stopping by my shop on the oct weekend of 17/18 for The GM Turbo 6 club event you are more than welcome to bring your pump and have it measured as you watch...............RC

 

[A2000RICH]

here's a straggler that wouldn't fit on the last post.....RC

 

[TurboPtom]

Had one fail just recently after using it for only 4 months.

Put in the 20 yr old pump back in and lo and behold it works perfectly.

Just have to drive it easy till I get a replacement.

Might as well give an update. Just installed another walbro only to have it die before I got 50 miles out of it. Relays, Grounds, Connections, Regulator. Everything else is good. The stocker started the car right up again after I pulled the 2nd bad pump out.

This is rediculous. I know acdelco pumps are weak for a modded car, but If thats the only option..

 

[ijames]

I'd always heard that Red shimmed the bypass spring on the 307's but it looks like he also does it on his 340's, given how the flow holds up better at 70+ psi. I like how at 14 V and 70 psi the flow goes from about 58 on the 340s to 65 gph on Red's 340s. That's 10% more flow right where lots of guys run.

 

[Bens87tr]

This is almost exactly what my theory has been since the advent of alky injection came out. Not knocking alky injection, but boost is addictive and alky allows insane levels of boost.

My theory is this, these pumps in OEM stock form were designed to operate under 12-13 volt range on OEM fuel pump wiring, 30-40psi fuel pressure at idle, and 45-55psi under WOT. (Stock car running 12-15psi on a 233 non adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Boost level depending on ambient temps) No swet for the Walbro 340 pumps to handle.


Now, you factor in these variables:

Adjustable fuel pressure regulator which allows the end user to up the pressure to 50psi if needed on small injectors, hot wire kits and volt boosters which spike the pump with 14-14.9 volts everytime you go WOT, insane boost levels of 25-30psi brought on by alky injection and or race gas. Now you add a semi clogged OEM fuel filter to the mix and you have a recipe for a failed pump.
Especially on a car that is constantly rode hard and put up wet.
Think about the voltage and boost pressure swings when you have these conditions. You can see the swing in flow vs voltage thanks to Mr. Clark's charts.

It doesn't surprise me that Walbros are failing. What does surprise me, are cars that put the pump on and have it fail within a week of normal driving.
That tells me that something might have changed with materials and production standards. The Japanease have been dealing with these issues for years on their Forced Inducted cars. You will notice that most serious Japanease turbo cars (1000-1400hp applications) will run 2 sometimes 3 external Bosch pumps on those setups. It always amazed me why they don't simply switch over to a Weldon style pump, but I digress.

One this is for sure, this has been an excellent post, and I'd like to thank Mike Licht and Mr. Clark for all their efforts with this issue.
I think it's time we get in touch with the DSM/Evo crowd and find out which pump they are using today? Those guys run serious fuel pressure/boost ratios. I know there is a superior pump to the 340/F20000169 pump, but I can't remember the part number. What would be nice if someone developed a bolt on retrofit kit using this super pump to our cars.
I'll do some digging on my end.
Sorry this is so long winded.


Patrick

I have a post in the new product forum for a fuel pump setup...

 

[A2000RICH]

guys-------something just doesn't make sense--------i really want to hear what walbro has to say--------i know they are a quality company--------i checked them out-------started in 1950------walbro was aquired by TI Automotive in 1999 who is a tier 1 supplier to major auto manufacturers---------april 07 walbro engine management was acquired by Sun Capital Partners Inc out of Boca Raton Fla------mucho big--------walbro has a total of about 2000 employees and have a good credit rating-------they have several manufacturing plants----------a pump failing in 50 miles???---------you guys are just gonna have to stop trying to compete in AA top-fuel------the nitro is really hard on the pumps--------seriously i would like to see confirmation that it is not a cheap knock-off---------i manufacture a lot of products and i know first hand what it is like to have stuff copied overseas as well as right here in the good ol USA--------and it can make things really hard on the brand reputation--------this is nothing against the net but in times like these its prudent to deal with quality oriented reputable vendors...................RC

 

[turbo nasty]

Hate to say it but outta the pumps I have used over the years the reds xp is the only one I have had FAIL. And when it did it took out the hotwire with it. Dont ask me why the fuse didnt pop none the less it smoked the hotwire.

Replaced with a Walbro 340 M and a new hotwire (FTand Caspers) and all is well the walbro is still chugging.

 

[TTipe]

Walbro Failure??

Backwash from dirty fuel filters,the lack of a slush box in a rebuilt fuel tank & running low amounts of fuel under hard acceleration are also possible factors which could promote pump failure.

 

[A2000RICH]

did the higher pressure tests tonight-------surprised me----from what i saw at 40-50 and 70 i thought i would see higher numbers------not so much-------i didn't do an automated test so there will be no chart-----since i thought it might create problems i did it quickly manually and only did spot measurements-----walbro 340----70 PSI 10 volts= 8.74 amps---12V=8.74 amps----14V=9.39 amps-----16V=10.25 amps--------------------------------80 PSI 10V=10.06 amps-----12V=10.07 amps-----14V=10.50 amps------16V=11.19 amps--------------and just for kicks a quick test at 90 psi @ 15V= 12.70 amps---------overall the ambient temperature was about 15 degrees cooler than the previous tests but i doubt it would have made more than a fraction of an amp difference-------pretty much rules out the failure problem being caused by excessive operating pressures UNLESS these pumps cannot deal with short term operation in the 8+ amp range............RC

 

[Jerryl]

did the higher pressure tests tonight-------surprised me----from what i saw at 40-50 and 70 i thought i would see higher numbers------not so much-------i didn't do an automated test so there will be no chart-----since i thought it might create problems i did it quickly manually and only did spot measurements-----walbro 340----70 PSI 10 volts= 8.74 amps---12V=8.74 amps----14V=9.39 amps-----16V=10.25 amps--------------------------------80 PSI 10V=10.06 amps-----12V=10.07 amps-----14V=10.50 amps------16V=11.19 amps--------------and just for kicks a quick test at 90 psi @ 15V= 12.70 amps---------overall the ambient temperature was about 15 degrees cooler than the previous tests but i doubt it would have made more than a fraction of an amp difference-------pretty much rules out the failure problem being caused by excessive operating pressures UNLESS these pumps cannot deal with short term operation in the 8+ amp range............RC

Mr. Clark,
AWESOME research!
Thank you for putting in the time and efforts!
It will help thousands of people.
We will have to see what Walbro thinks.

Backwash from dirty fuel filters,the lack of a slush box in a rebuilt fuel tank & running low amounts of fuel under hard acceleration are also possible factors which could promote pump failure.

Not sure about any of the listed causes.
Quite a few fast and knowledgable guys suddenly having issues with new pumps with no change in tanks ........

Belief me, being in the MFG industry for a long time, and having worked the LCC sourcing queue, I have a few speculations, but I'll await the facts.

 

[Mike Licht]

I am going to try to address a few post here,
the DSM EVO guys use the Walbro GSS342 for the most part, same pump, different inlet, outlet position.
The pumps are still made in the US I will find out which plant today if possible,
Mr. Clark, nice testing, I expect nothing les from you though I seem to remember that the pumps are good until 12 or 13 amps 100% duty cycle but my memory is not what it once was. I will try to get that info for you as well.
The by-pass spring is under the cup plug on top of the pump punching it down with a punch is what some guys do to delay the opening and give more flow at high pressure (XP) according to my friend at Walbro this will shorten the life of the pump quite a bit since the pump must draw more current to move more fuel at pressure, maybe Mr. Clark can verify that (HINT)?
He asked me years ago NOT to do that to pumps we sell and since we have a good working realtionship and I respect what he says, I have respected his wish, I have done it to a couple pumps in my own car, one failed, one did not so no real data there, but enough not to do it for a customer IMO. Use that info at your own risk. Please do not modify the pump and then come here screaming that it failed.
Mike

 

[Mike Licht]

We will have to see what Walbro thinks.
Not sure about any of the listed causes.
Quite a few fast and knowledgable guys suddenly having issues with new pumps with no change in tanks ........

The comverstion I had with the engineer was very close to that, the tanks have not changed, the hot wire kits are the same we have been using for years, grounds have not changed, but something has. They agreed to look at it we will see what they say.
Mike

 

[wbrophy]

I have been told that Red's pump is really a different animal.

I talked to Red A. a few years ago and he told me that he has his 340's made with different (thicker) windings; from another pump that Walbro makes and are not the standard 340 pump windings. Maybe this is why his pumps perform so well, all it would take is a look inside one of those ATR 340's and the Red A. pump. He seems like an honest guy to me that a lot of people don't like for some reason.

 

[Mike Licht]

I talked to Red A. a few years ago and he told me that he has his 340's made with different (thicker) windings; from another pump that Walbro makes and are not the standard 340 pump windings. Maybe this is why his pumps perform so well, all it would take is a look inside one of those ATR 340's and the Red A. pump. He seems like an honest guy to me that a lot of people don't like for some reason.

With all due respect to You and Red that is a line of crap. I have spoken to Walbro about that more than once and they ASSURED me that in no way shape or form do they build a custom HP pump for anyone. They do not have the time on the line nor do they have a more powerful armature than the one in the 34x series in their catalog. I asked them to build a more powerful pump for me and even if I ordered a thousand pumps it was not enough to even think about it. My opinion is that is a way to justify a much higher price for the pump, he does however punch down the relief valve. I suspect the failure rate is the same as everyone that sells Walbro but since he does not sell near as many pumps as some of the other vendors you do not hear about as many.
Mike

 

[Mike Licht]

A little update:
I put a "bad" pump in my car today that was perfect in every way except WOT where the pressure would fall to about 20PSI. I took that back out and replaced it with a new GSS 341 (I sent the last F2000169 to a customer and did not want to wait any more to get this done) New pump works perfect in every way and tracks pressure 1 for 1 with boost. I contacted the application engineer for high performance at Walbro and we talked for a while I explained everything going on and sent the pump to him he will have it tomorrow and is going to disect it. Pending that I will take my car there if we need to since they are here in Michigan. I confirmed today that all HP series pumps (34X and F 2000169) are made in ......... Caro, Michigan. Other pumps like the flex fuel and module stuff are made in Greenville TN. There is a much larger 300+ litre/hr pump made in Germany but we cannot get it here.... yet. We are working on that now.
Mike

 

[JDSfastGN]

Mike I sent you two bad 340s today. It has a little hand written note lol, but just wanted to let you know if they are useful for you. They are both 169s that were bought from fullthrottle.

 

[TURBO 6]

Mike, don't tell me you're out of pumps. I ordered one from you today. I'm gonna do some testing of my own.

 

[87natl]

Mike, don't tell me you're out of pumps. I ordered one from you today. I'm gonna do some testing of my own.

I've got one I ordered form Mike back at the start of the year that has not even been out of the box, if you're interested. I just bought it as a back up.

(Still running an OLD Reds XP pump on mine at this time, LOL!)

 

[wbrophy]

I'll take the reds. man.

I've got one I ordered form Mike back at the start of the year that has not even been out of the box, if you're interested. I just bought it as a back up.

(Still running an OLD Reds XP pump on mine at this time, LOL!)

I guess you can not wait to get that OLD pump out of there after taking in all the info., I'm sure someone here after taking in all of this very fine information would be glad to send you a nice new spanking pump for your "OLD" Reds. Someone once said, I'll take the Reds, man.:biggrin:

PS: I run dual ATR's 307's for many years now with no problems; I wish I had bought the Reds after seeing the charts, but what did I know. LOL!

 

[m233roller]

I had two of Reds pumps fail in one month? Been running in the mid. to high tens on a 340 from Mike ever since with same wiring, hot kit, grounds ECT. Go figure?? Should have kept my mouth shut as it will probably bite me now ???