2004r Direct Drum Burnt frictions...help!

[mikestertwo]

I see you figured it out. 3rd gear oil pushes the servo off to release the band. Using the "pink" spring is a no-no. That will increase the binding issue on the 2-3 shift. A stock spring or the one Chris offers should work fine. Did you dual feed the direct clutch or leave it stock?

 

[VenomGT]

I am still trying to figure out what the dual feed will affect down the line. I may have to call CK and get the spring after all. I am enjoying working on this transmission so much, I am facinated by the simplicity and complexity of it all.

 

[VenomGT]

So far from what I have gathered, you remove the middle ring from the center support shaft, plug bolt that feeds the other circuit (which in my head seems to counter act the removed ring), open up 3rd Acc hole on the plate. Would that feed the forward as well? I know the forward is engaged thru all the gear....but what about reverse and neutral?

 

[mikestertwo]

So far from what I have gathered, you remove the middle ring from the center support shaft, plug bolt that feeds the other circuit (which in my head seems to counter act the removed ring), open up 3rd Acc hole on the plate. Would that feed the forward as well? I know the forward is engaged thru all the gear....but what about reverse and neutral?

On a dual feed setup you plug the reverse feed line and remove the center sealing ring on the center support and the center lip seal on the 3rd clutch piston. This allows 3rd gear oil to be applied to the entire surface area of the direct piston which doubles the apply force on the clutches in 3rd gear which normally only happens in reverse. The reason you have to plug the reverse feed line is the 3rd gear oil will be exhausted through the reverse line since the center sealing ring and seal is removed. How do you put it in reverse if the reverse feed line is plugged you ask? Reverse oil is fed through the 3rd gear oil line. Check ball #6 moves over and seals the 3rd clutch line and directs oil into the direct clutch. If done right there is no draw back. If not done right it will cause binding on the 2-3 shift at light throttle and you will also get 2-3-2 hunting at light throttle.

 

[VenomGT]

Wouldn't the feed hole on the bolt have a bottle neck effect? Is it better because the fluid has access to a larger apply area? One of the shift kits I have been playing with has you drill the third accumulator feed to 1/8" but never mentions a dual feed setup.
I am not trying to re-invent the wheel, I am just curios. I am sorry if I am getting annoying with all the questions.
PS. I just noticed that you are a mechanical engineer...that's what I am currently going to school for. To someday work for materials development for the military.

 

[mikestertwo]

The feed hole in the bolt is plenty big enough. The restriction is in the spacer plate. Yes, dual feeding doubles the apply area in 3rd so that doubles the pressure on the clutch pack without having to increase pump pressure. It's usually only necessary on higher horsepower cars but I dual feed all the transmissions I rebuild just for insurance. It's probably not necessary in your case. No problem answering your questions. Asking questions is how you learn!
PS. I work in the electronics industry as an equipment engineer designing and improving processing equipment.

 

[TexasT]

It's usually only necessary on higher horsepower cars but I dual feed all the transmissions I rebuild just for insurance. It's probably not necessary in your case.

Question. What has been your experience with the dual feed and not installing a billet shaft forward drum? I would like to try it but haven't saved up the coin for the billet piece yet and it has been stated here it is needed when dual feeding. Tia

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[mikestertwo]

Question. What has been your experience with the dual feed and not installing a billet shaft forward drum? I would like to try it but haven't saved up the coin for the billet piece yet and it has been stated here it is needed when dual feeding. Tia
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Using a hardened or billet forward drum shaft is highly recommended. I broke 4 stockers before I went to billet shaft forward drums. Using a high stall converter is less abusive on the drum shaft (less shock) but it's usually just a matter of time before it breaks. I think Art Carr still offers a hardened drum which is much better than a stocker. I did break one but that was on a car that was pushing 500+ horsepower off of a trans brake. I have a friend that has been using one in a low 11's car behind a 9-11 converter and it is still living. I have never seen anyone break a billet shaft forward drum.

 

[dartguy340]

On a dual feed setup you plug the reverse feed line and remove the center sealing ring on the center support and the center lip seal on the 3rd clutch piston. This allows 3rd gear oil to be applied to the entire surface area of the direct piston which doubles the apply force on the clutches in 3rd gear which normally only happens in reverse. The reason you have to plug the reverse feed line is the 3rd gear oil will be exhausted through the reverse line since the center sealing ring and seal is removed. How do you put it in reverse if the reverse feed line is plugged you ask? Reverse oil is fed through the 3rd gear oil line. Check ball #6 moves over and seals the 3rd clutch line and directs oil into the direct clutch. If done right there is no draw back. If not done right it will cause binding on the 2-3 shift at light throttle and you will also get 2-3-2 hunting at light throttle.

I did a similiar hop up like this on a half dozen 727's I rebuilt back in the late 90's. Granted, there was
less pressure going to the reverse clutch pack, but no big deal, a lot of pressure isn't needed for reverse.

 

[VenomGT]

So I am going to go with a dual feed then, do you think a treaded plug will be good enough to block the reverse feed or maybe get a bolt with the same thread? I tried getting it welded and they wanted $15 buck for a tack weld....I didn't even ask how much for the exhaust pipe I needed butt welded.
What other improvements is there that I should consider besides the billet parts?
-So far I have the heavier springs in the valve body
-TV valve revised spring and the heavier spring to avoid getting it stuck
-Blocked off 1-2, 3-4 accumulator (based on that when It ran before the shifts were firm but I wouldn't mind a bit more drama, I know its going to be rough on the components but I rather enjoy than baby it)
- enlarged 3rd acc, RND4D3, 3rd clutch, 2nd clutch, RND4 orifice. (wondering If I should go larger on the second 3rd circuit feed which seems to apply on D3 or the same as RND4D3)
-wrapping up the direct clutch dual feed.
-10 vane pump rotor, .500 boost valve, dual spring in the pump slide, hardened rings, heavier springs with sleeve to avoid breakage from rubbing, Teflon bushing and a large lockup solenoid.
-Alto Wide band and red frictions all around with raybestos steels. (kolene seems to be the latest and greatest but not too many fans).
I feel I am forgetting something but just in case. Is there any other mod I should consider?

 

[bison]

If you didn't machine your pump housing specifically for the 10 vane rotor/slide id check that again. They rarely drop in without any work

 

[VenomGT]

I checked the clearance with a straight edge I think it was .002 or something like that. Also i opened up the pump just to check that no crap had been sucked into it from the burnt direct friction it was all just like I installed it. It was also full of clean fluid FTW...lol

 

[VenomGT]

Also I have to give a shout out to Monster Transmissions, their kit was on point the only complaint I have is that it comes with no instructions of any sort but then again I guess they hope you know what you are doing lol.

 

[TexasT]

While you have it apart did you drill out the pump drain back? What about a larger rev boost valve, hard pump rings? I put a sonnax single pump slide spring. I stayed with the seven vane and some new hard rings.
What heavy springs in the valve body?
Some aren't to fond of the alto clutches/band. I used Borg warner, raybestos and a carbon band.
You have couple of the gurus answering so ill let them continue.

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[VenomGT]

The pump had the large drain back that was connected to one of the slots, the only thing I had to drill was the back cover because that half of the pump had a 1/8" hole.
I did consider it but I don't see the benefit of the reverse boost valve because out of pure luck I trimmed the governor just right and the TV cable is a lot more responsive than the old kick down on the power glide and the 2000 stall converter its like a rev match...the whole thing amazed me until I blew third.
on the valve body I got Anti stick x2, accumulator and line biased.
I went with alto because supposedly is manufactured in the US...which not trying to star a political argument but if we don't buy American we will never have a good economy...
And I greatly appreciate the Gurus, their patience and time to answer my waves of questions.

 

[mikestertwo]

I agree with TexasT on the Alto clutches and band. I have never had any luck with the alto wide band. Standard width band works fine. I only use Borg Warner or Raybestos clutch disks with standard steels. A little advise if you go dual feed...do not open up the RND4-D3 or 3rd clutch orifices in the spacer plate. It will aggravate a 2-3 bind and a 2-3-2 hunting issue at low throttle angles. Leave them alone. I also install heavier return spings and heavy duty retainer plate in the direct clutch to help alleviate the 2-3 bind issue that crops up when you dual feed along with the hunting. To plug the reverse feed just tap the hole in the existing bolt and put a set screw in it with a little red loctite.

 

[TexasT]

I don't have my notes in front of me but the 3rd clutch orfice I believe I went to .125 . I used the steels that came in the trans. They weren't burnt but I did scuff them a bit with a cross hatch. My band is stock width though I did spring for a sonnax servo.
What about the pink spring on the boost stack? And a pressure relief spring or at least a washer in there to prevent the
roll pin from cutting the spring?

I'm not sure what the anti stick x2 is or what you are stating about the accumulator and line bias, but I did put a 700r4 return spring in the line bias and put the line bias spring in the accumulator in the valve body. I pinned the gov spring and as I am using an AA gov put the big weight spring on the small weight side and left the big weight swinging free. We will see how that goes.

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[VenomGT]

the anti stick springs are a black spring and a big cone shape spring that goes around the TV valve and at the rear of the valve, there is another spring on the rear of the valve body behind the tv valve the kit calls it the accumulator valve (???)
I kept both springs on my governor just trimmed the weights, out of shear luck I got 5000 rpm shifts +/- 300rpm I will measure it and post the size just in case someone wants it. I didn't do the washer but I do have aftermarket springs in the pump.
I think I am going to drop the dual feed because my car is 3200 lbs probably more with the new trans and has 3.08 stock in the diff. (althought the 2004r can light the tires up standing or into second with the weezy 307 which has grown on me.

 

[VenomGT]

Sorry to bump an old thread but I wanted to let you guys know that the transmission is still holding really good. I have been messing with the shift points(with random springs from the hardware store and some online ones that were just sold as springs) and I am currently running the tv cable one click tighter and the only issue I have is when I cruise from 50+mph down to the 40's with the lock up on, it seems to bog the engine but I have the toggle switch on the lockup so that is my temporary fix until I get higher diff gears!
Thanks again for all the help and if any of you are going to the chevelle show in MD this weekend I'll be there.

 

[bison]

Sorry to bump an old thread but I wanted to let you guys know that the transmission is still holding really good. I have been messing with the shift points(with random springs from the hardware store and some online ones that were just sold as springs) and I am currently running the tv cable one click tighter and the only issue I have is when I cruise from 50+mph down to the 40's with the lock up on, it seems to bog the engine but I have the toggle switch on the lockup so that is my temporary fix until I get higher diff gears!
Thanks again for all the help and if any of you are going to the chevelle show in MD this weekend I'll be there.

Are you measuring the springs in a spring tester that you are using? If you are please add the info with the vb code and any governor info


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