2013 TSO Rules Discussion

[lrayzer]

Wow, the only way I have shed that much weight quickly was signing the divorce decree...

Really, we are talking major stripped here to hit 3000#, if you add in the safety equip required to run these times, the car would be a shell, with alum panels and Lexan every where and not in the spirit of the class I would think

 

[gnxtc2]

Wow, the only way I have shed that much weight quickly was signing the divorce decree...

Really, we are talking major stripped here to hit 3000#, if you add in the safety equip required to run these times, the car would be a shell, with alum panels and Lexan every where and not in the spirit of the class I would think

Last year the weights were changed and the smaller turbo weight was removed. I posted my reasoning for 3000lb.

Look at the rules for X275.
http://x275.net/2013-x275-rules/

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[Brad T]

Last year the weights were changed and the smaller turbo weight was removed. I posted my reasoning for 3000lb.

Look at the rules for X275.
http://x275.net/2013-x275-rules/

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

If we keep the glass windows ,dash and interior can anyone really get that light ?

 

[jimmymorrisonjr]

If we keep the glass windows ,dash and interior can anyone really get that light ?

No, the weight discussion is just symbolic

 

[baadgn]

I'm having a hard time getting my head around the "no clear advantage" of a liquid intercooler. Being able to lower your intake air temps by 50 degrees or more on a hot day certainly is an advantage whether it's realized on a certain combination or not.

As far as exhaust systems are concerned, I thought the mandatory muffler requirement was to help keep the " street element " in Turbo Street Outlaw " mind you, these cars are so far from being street cars ............. LOL

Just a couple of thoughts,

George

George
No disrespect.... but if you think its a clear advantage then step up, It has not shown a "clear advantage" on a buick on the same car with the same tuner so why penalize it till it does ? George my opinion on a TSO car is a car that while on the line it "looks" like a street car..... I can assure you... you will see my cage and parachute long before you realize if i have a muffler or not.

A few more thoughts..... lol

 

[Grandpa George]

"Quote"
Any exhaust/downpipe allowed. Muffler(s) optional.
"Quote"
I also propose add 50lbs for wheelie bars.


Billy, 2 questions;

1. Any requirements for where the exhaust exits ?

2. Why would we add 50 lbs. for wheelie bars ? The bars themselves add weight ???? Help me understand ?

George

 

[HighPSI]

Final list:

#1 Exhaust rule:

A) No part of turbo exhaust may exit forward of engine flywheel area and a muffler is required (current rule)
B) Any exhaust/downpipe allowed. Muffler(s) optional (proposed change)

#2 Car not meeting a rule:

A) If a car is not legal for the class, event participants vote to allow. If even one particpant votes against, the car is not allowed (current rule)
B) If a car is not legal in the class then it should not be allowed to qualify or run eliminations regardless of event car count (proposed change)

#3 Fuel:

A) Gasoline fuel only, no additives, alcohol, or nitrous oxide injection allowed (current rule) (Note: If this rule is voted in, rule will be reworded to eliminate E85, etc..)
B) Allow E85 fuel (proposed change) (Note: If this rule is voted in, it will ONLY be to allow E85 and NOT E98, Methanol, etc.. I WILL BE TESTING FUELS)

#4 Weights:

A) 3250# with a 50# penalty for a liquid IC for ALL participants (current rule)
B) Above Rule with 250# weight break for 85mm or smaller turbos (proposed change)

#5 Liquid Intercooler Penalty:

A) 50# weight penalty for liquid intercoolers (current rule)
B) Remove 50# weight penalty for liquid intercoolers (proposed change)

#6 Wheelie Bar Penalty:

A) Wheelie bars allowed without any penalty (current rule)
B) 50# weight penalty for wheelie bars (proposed change)

 

[HighPSI]

Here's who's eligible to vote:

-----------------------2012 Racers
Richie Balcom
Willard Brown
Jason Cramer
Don Cruz
Bobby Don
Paul Dubois
Manny Espino
Dave Fiscus
Art Frye
Gary Harmon
Justin Hinderer
Jimmy Morrison
Bill Steurnagle
Tim Szabo
Brad Tennyson
George Thompson
Billy T
Jason White
-----------------------2011 Racers
O.C. Cantrell
Rob Irle
Nick Piccione
Tom Robison
Jr Turner


Last year, everyone gave their vote privatly and after all votes were received, I posted them publicly. I think this is a great idea so no one is influenced. Please PM, email, or call me with your votes and I will put them in a spreadsheet.

 

[johnplogii]

If we keep the glass windows ,dash and interior can anyone really get that light ?

Not a tso car but I can weigh 3260 with 1/2 tank of fuel. Now I could still change to aluminum heads, fiberglass/carbon fiber deck lid, remove all a/c components, run less fuel in a cell and lose about 40lbs myself. Should get pretty close.

 

[Cheeseburger]

What would really get things creative and more exciting is the same turbo/motor rule and a weight limit of say 3200lbs or more (no lightweight cars), no tubs/wheelie bars or lexan and anything else goes...... I'm sure some eye opening new ideas would come about....
I know, well never happen but would be cool to not know what everyone else is bringing to the table untill your at the track racing.....
Sorry if my post is out of line here as i'm not a TSO racer....

 

[Grandpa George]

Tony,

why would one go to the expense and modification of a liquid intercooler , if there was no advantage ? just another thought. LOL

I keep stepping up .......... pretty soon, I'll be running Pro Mod ... now that's a thought.

with more respect

George

 

[Brad T]

Tony,

why would one go to the expense and modification of a liquid intercooler , if there was no advantage ? just another thought. LOL

I keep stepping up .......... pretty soon, I'll be running Pro Mod ... now that's a thought.

with more respect

George

My thinking is there could be an advantage when it is very hot out. The problem has been the track we run on in August will not hold the power. So the end result has been no advantage for the liquid cooler.

 

[baadgn]

My thinking is there could be an advantage when it is very hot out. The problem has been the track we run on in August will not hold the power. So the end result has been no advantage for the liquid cooler.

Exactly.... on a buick at a buick event it has NOT shown an advantage in 2 years worth of trying same car, same motor, same turbo, same tune, same driver and................................................................... 200 LBS Lighter !!!

 

[odell4o8]

Exactly.... on a buick at a buick event it has NOT shown an advantage in 2 years worth of trying same car, same motor, same turbo, same tune, same driver and................................................................... 200 LBS Lighter !!!

i was at a local shop this morning[corvette guys] i told them about thid discussion,no advantage to liquid versis air to air intercooler on a buick v-6 a mustange owner was there that has a turbo engine, the owner has a firebird with twin gt 47-88 turbos, with a liquid cooler, point is they had a good laff ,seems like their cars make more power with liquid coolers and they have their own dino, ever turbocharged race cars like camaros and firebirds, corvettes etc, has liquid coolers are they wasting their money? it dont matter with me which coller you run, just my 2 cents,

 

[HighPSI]

The votes have started rolling in. After I receive a few more, I will post a list of who I still need. You guys can PM me, email me (cal@HartlinePerformance.com), text me , or call me (321)863-2303

 

[Grandpa George]

Brad T said: ↑

My thinking is there could be an advantage when it is very hot out. The problem has been the track we run on in August will not hold the power. So the end result has been no advantage for the liquid cooler.
​

Exactly.... on a buick at a buick event it has NOT shown an advantage in 2 years worth of trying same car, same motor, same turbo, same tune, same driver and................................................................... 200 LBS lighter !!!!


Are we kidding ourselves here ???? Cooler, denser air makes more power. PERIOD !! "One" cars experience cannot be used to disprove a liquid intercooler's advantages over hundreds of others that use them for their proven benefits. If a race car doesn't see benefits of more horsepower due to a properly functioning liquid intercooler, there are other issues. The fact that a track on a hot August afternoon can't hold the power is a traction problem, not a horsepower problem

 

[tom robison]

Voted

 

[Brad T]

Brad T said: ↑

My thinking is there could be an advantage when it is very hot out. The problem has been the track we run on in August will not hold the power. So the end result has been no advantage for the liquid cooler.​

​

Exactly.... on a buick at a buick event it has NOT shown an advantage in 2 years worth of trying same car, same motor, same turbo, same tune, same driver and................................................................... 200 LBS lighter !!!!


Are we kidding ourselves here ???? Cooler, denser air makes more power. PERIOD !! "One" cars experience cannot be used to disprove a liquid intercooler's advantages over hundreds of others that use them for their proven benefits. If a race car doesn't see benefits of more horsepower due to a properly functioning liquid intercooler, there are other issues. The fact that a track on a hot August afternoon can't hold the power is a traction problem, not a horsepower problem

What about e85 ? Wonder what that does for the inlet temp ?

I think I remember reading that at a point the gain from cooler air starts to get smaller the cooler you go. Say you would gain much less from 80 to 70 than you would from with the same ten deg. drop if it was 110 down to 100 ? Not being a butt just thinking it is an interesting question . Why haven't we seen the 50 hp or more gain ?

The point is August would be the time when we could make more power than a good air to air but in the heat of the day the only way to make it down for everyone is less power . Not saying there might be someone out there who can run 7.90 in the heat but I haven't seen any 10.5 V6 Buicks that can come close yet.

 

[HighPSI]

Does anyone know how to reach Art Frye or Rob Irle/Gene Cassidy?

 

[baadgn]

i was at a local shop this morning[corvette guys] i told them about thid discussion,no advantage to liquid versis air to air intercooler on a buick v-6 a mustange owner was there that has a turbo engine, the owner has a firebird with twin gt 47-88 turbos, with a liquid cooler, point is they had a good laff ,seems like their cars make more power with liquid coolers and they have their own dino, ever turbocharged race cars like camaros and firebirds, corvettes etc, has liquid coolers are they wasting their money? it dont matter with me which coller you run, just my 2 cents,

Twin turbo v8 to single turbo v6........... so your comparing a 3000 hp motor to a 1400 hp motor...... i bet they did have a laugh.... my 2 cents.

p.s The two TSO cars that have have run 7's both have air to air intercoolers the one TSO car that did swap over 2 years ago hasnt picked up any......... bet he is not having a good laugh since its an obvious improvement according to the experts that have tried it on V6s. I dont care either way myself, but a few years ago there was a 200lb penalty on stage heads because they are so much better on "paper" and where is that penalty now.....................GONE