'87 Turbo T was running but now won't start?

[1980malibuman]

My '87 Turbo T that I just drove back home from West Palm Beach over 2300 miles was starting fine before the whole trip. Yesterday it wouldn't start, just cranks over real fast. The fuel pump can be heard when the ignition is turned on. A TR tuner named Dave close to West Palm Beach checked over the car before I picked it up and said that the rough idle was b/c it has 50# injectors and the Kirban chip is setup for stock injectors. Other wise he gave it a clean bill of health. Below is a list of upgrades done to the car by a previous owner to the fellow that I bought it from. I added some more 92 octane fuel today just to be sure that it wasn't out of fuel as the gauge showed just under a quarter tank and these gauges aren't great.

- 50# injectors
- Walbro upgraded fuel pump
- Adjustable fuel pressure regulator and gauge
- Adjustable waste gate actuator
- MAF Translator and LS1 MAF sensor
- K & N Air filter (bottom of factory housing removed)
- 3" downpipe and Hooker 2 1/2" dual exhaust
- Vacuum brake converstion
- 160 degree thermostat
- New: Crank Sensor, Cam Sensor, !AC, Coil Pack and Module, HP wires

The car ran rough when warm at idle, but always started up for the last 11 days. Anyone have a suggestion? I also made a post about the problems that I have experienced with my '86 GN recently, so I'm not having much luck with the new technology performance cars.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

2300 miles w/ a chip that's that far off? I doubt that.
Spins over really fast? Timing chain has taken a dump? Pull the cam sensor cap, and see if it's turning when cranking the engine.
Dave??

 

[1980malibuman]

Hi Dave,

The info is what I've been told by the fellow member who I bought the car from. He was informed about the chip by either the previous owner and/or the TR tuner Dave from J & J Auto Upholstery in Lake Worth, FL. I recieved an update from Donny whom I purchased this car from and he added that the chip is a Kirban 93 octane chip for stock injectors.
Now what I didn't say earlier was that this car had a rebuilt stock tubo on it from Limit Engineering (second one as the first had a problem for Jim the second previous owner) and that within 50 miles of installing the turbo that the nut came off on the intake side and was loose in the plastic tube that connects to the MAF. When Donny and I took the tube off we could hear a rattle inside and found the nut. When we shone a light into the turbo we could see that the impeller was chewed up and that the car was burning oil out the tail pipes on even light acceleration. Donny bought a used tubo and we bolted it back on hoping that everything would be fine and I could drive the car back to Winnipeg. The oil return hose looked brand new and was probably replaced when the first rebuilt turbo was installed. The engine stopped smoking after a few minutes and was OK when I test drove for 15 minutes after we installed the used tubo. The one thing that I noticed was that there was a light knocking sound coming from the front of the engine, and I thought it was more on the pass. side? I drove the car to Nashville and decided to change the oil as it looked dirty. I used a quality 10W30 sythetic and 200 miles later checked the oil and it was dark again and down a little bit on the dipstick. (The engine compression was 165-170 on all 6 cylinders before I picked up the car as per the previous owner Jim and Dave the TR tuner.) The oil had not visibly dropped on the dip stick from Jupiter to Nashville (approx. 1000 miles), but used a quart of oil from Nashville to Winnipeg (approx. 1300 miles). The knock has gotten a little louder but the car has been rough at idle and under light acceleration but then runs smoothly since I bought it, or so it seems. That's the story.
One other thing is that I used 93 octane fuel until I hit areas where 92 was the best premium then one fill of 91 Octane fuel. I just added some 93 ethonal blended gas from my local Mohawk gas station this afternoon.

Barry

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Some ideas..

1. I'm not Dave. I was wondering who this Dave guy is.
2. Running that engine that far w/ a chip that's computing fuel flow, based on 28# injs and feeding that pulsewidth to 55# injs, is likely the reason for:
A. The noises.. AKA bearings washed out.
B. The "dirty" oil... Actually it is oil full of gas, and that gas has washed all the crap out of the engine, and into the pan.

I'm in total amazement, that "Donny" gave you the car, knowing the chip was a total mismatch for the injs!!

Bottom line:I'd pull the engine down, and see WTF is going on.

 

[1980malibuman]

I realize that you are not Dave, and in my last post I wrote who Dave is. Sorry if you mistook my last message. Donny posted a message on this board a few weeks ago looking for a TR tuner in th West Palm Beach area. He felt it would be a good idea for me to have it tuned up before I drove it 2400 miles. I agreed b/c he mentioned that it idled rough. Dave's (from J & J Auto Upholstery) name was suggested by a fellow member on this board who recommended him. I'm surprised that Dave would tune the car knowing that it was going on a long drive and not give any advice about the possible damage. The post was "Need a TR tuner in the Palm Beach Area".

I suspected that the dirty oil was from the bearings after I had it changed out. It wasn't that clean when I picked up the car even though the oil had been changed and the car not driven very far after. Would any of the crap from the rebuilt turbo being chewed up by the loose nut from the impeller caused some engine damage? Does Limit Engineering have some responsibility for sending a second faulty rebuilt turbo with a loose nut on the impeller being the problem with the last one? Donny mentioned that when he bought the car from Jim that it was smoking badly from the first rebuilt turbo from Limit. People that I know mentioned that they are surprised that Limit Engineering would turn out two faulty rebuilds.

Of note, is I adjusted the fuel pressure down from 30 PSI to 28 PSI with the vacuum line disconnected and blocked, to try to stop the black smoke coming out of the exhaust when you stepped on the gas pedal to pass and the black stains left by the exhaust tail pipes on the lower rear quarters. It didn't seem to make any difference.

In fairness to Donny, he is relatively new to these turbo cars himself, so he probably didn't know what was happening and he didn't drive the car after he bought it other than to get it home, to test drive it after he installed the second rebuilt turbo from Limit Engineering and then to J & J Auto Upholstery to let Dave tune the car, then home.

Finally I agree that the engine should come out, but I still would like to know why it suddenly won't start?

 

[Swt_86]

If it spins over fast and doesn't fire, the timing chain is the first thing I'd check as posted above.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

And..

If it spins over fast and doesn't fire, the timing chain is the first thing I'd check as posted above.

Like I posted above, pull the cam sensor cap off, and see if it spins when you crank the engine.

 

[1980malibuman]

Will check it out tonight. Thanks.

 

[1980malibuman]

It looks like the timing chain has jumped. I checked with my local Buick dealer and they don't sell the crank sproket anymore, everything else I can still get. My advice has been to go with GM parts on this instead of the jobber parts. This has been local guys who have used both. Has anyone found a very good quality timing chain and gears or a kit that will stand up to steet use and occasional strip use? If so what and where can I buy it?

Thanks for the advice,

Barry

 

[1980malibuman]

Well I finally had a chance to disassemble the timing cover on my car. The metal teeth on the cam gear where missing for a third or more of the gear. After removing the oil pan, which was full of metal bits and pieces and looking at the pick up tube which had a bunch of crap stuck to it, I realize that this is a bigger problem than I originally expected. I could wiggle some of the rods on the crank and popped off # 2 rod cap. The bearing looks pretty worn, which would explain the color of the oil. Next step is to have the crank checked and polished, then add new bearings. I bought a new GM timing chain and gear set from Florida, so with a new water pump, gaskets and whatever else I hope to have my car running again soon. Thanks for the advice to all that responded. I will post a mesage when it's running again.

 

[TurboDave]

Bummer. Tuff lessons learned about how bad things can get when you try running a fuel injected car with the wrong chip. ESPECIALLY one that was SO wrong. You got some pretty bad advice on this one all the way around before and during the sale, especially since the parties involved new you were taking it over the long haul roads!!

BTW I'm not Dave either.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

w/that much "stuff" circulating thru the engine, it's time for a complete teardown, hot tanking, all new brgs and start over...

I think I'd be looking to "Dave the tuner" for some $$, along w/ the moron that sold you the car...

 

[1980malibuman]

I should have mentioned in my last message that I spoke to the second previous owner of this car. He has explained that he owned the car for over two years and for the first two years it ran "like a scalded cat" was his term. It then developed a rough idle and he replaced many electrical/electronic parts to try to correct the problem. He's an old school guy like myself and tackled some of the obvious possibilities first before eventually giving up and almost giving the car away to the chap that I bought it from. I pulled the numbers off the injectors and they are 30# units according to Eric from Turbotweak. Also the chip is a Poston unit which will work for the stock injectors or the 30# ones in the car and is rated for 93 octane. The chap who sold me the car didn't have all the info straight, but now I know. I still don't know why it was running rough. I hope that by going thru the engine's bottom end that we will fix the major issues. I have a GM tech who owns an 1987 GN who is going to help me with the engine and will decide whether or not to tear apart the engine once he looks it over. I did buy a new oil pickup tube as well as the afore mentioned parts. Of note when speaking to Jim (the second previous owner) was the fact that the car ate two used turbo's and a rebuilt Limit Engineering Turbo failed before he sold it to Donny for a song. Donny replaced the Limit Eng. rebuilt tubo with another under warranty, just before I bought the car and it did run fine except for the rough idle and the black smoke out the tail pipes on hard acceleration, until the nut came loose on the output side impeller and chewed it up. I should be seeing the newest rebuilt turbo from Limit as soon as Donny sends it up to me. Somehow it seems that I don't have much leverage to get the hundreds of $$$ back from Dave the recommended TR tuner from J & J Auto Upholstery in the Fort Worth area who supposedly re-charged the A/C (which stopped blowing cool air three days after I picked up the car) and tuned up the car. He suggested that the car had 50# injectors b/c they were gray along the bottom (apperently MSD has 50# injectors that are like that) instead of checking the #'s. I would like to get back my $$ from him, but in the meantime my suggestion is to stay away from this guy and his business. He also charged me to re-glue the new headliner material back in place and recover the visors. I noticed right away when I looked at the car that the clips were broken for the inside upper windshield reveal molding that holds the headliner tight along the windshield, and that there were dirt/grease marks on the visors and headliner. Pretty shoddy workmanship. As far as money back from Donny, he's a businessman first and foremost, who told me that he was losing money on selling me the '86 T-Type as well as the '87 Turbo T, so he feels that I got a good deal. That '86 T-Type with 45000 miles is in tough shape body wise and my '86 GN with 145000 KMS (90000 miles) is 10 times nicer if not more. Some hard lessons learned here by me, and I guess that I'm too trusting. I'm hoping that things will turn out OK in the end, but who knows?

 

[83ttypecooled]

Caveat Emptor

Hi,
The title phrase is always a good one to observe...I don't know what your deal was with these people, but when you are travelling, you are essentially vulnerable.Stuff like AC failures should be expected;obviously the system leaks.As far as the general crappy running condition of the vehicle, and the eventual no start,I'm not surprised, nor would I blame any party excessively.
I just bought a Cherokee with GN drivetrain,an old rusty POS that ate up half my vacation and lots of resources to get to a state of reliability where I could get home in it, and I will not complain, because I was totally aware of what I was getting into. It will probably all work out, and you will have a chuckle or two over the whole thing sooner or later. Good luck with your newest project!

 

[1980malibuman]

Very good advice, it's time to move on. I got ripped off by a few different people in this transaction and life goes on, right?

Thanks.

 

[1980malibuman]

Root of the problem

Just an update to the problem of my '87 Turbo Regal not starting, I did take the front timing/oil pump cover off and the timing chain had been replaced with a new one with metal teeth on the cam gear. 90% of them were sheared off. I then removed the oil pan and discovered a whack of metal bits sucked up against the oil pickup. I ordered an new oil pump/timing cover, oil pickup, factory timing chain/gears and gaskets. I will be removing the engine and cleaning out any remaining metal filings in the engine. I also checked the number 3 rod bearing and it was worn, but not unusual for 117000 miles in my opinion. I will be replacing the main and rod bearings. I still don't know why this engine was running rough at idle, unless the cam gear started to wear and break causing the engine to run badly? Looking forward to having this car up and running properly this summer!

Thanks for all the advice people.

Barry