A/F ratios of typical methanol inj alkycontrol

[it's just a six]

Hey guys,

just curious as to what A/F ratios you guys run when injecting a lot of methanol & pump gas in your gas tank?

Thank you
Rick

 

[Razor]

single nozzle 10.8-11.0

twin nozzle 10.0-10.5

these are starting points

http://www.campbellautomotive.com/1000hpv6.wmv

This was 10.0:1

hth

 

[Slow91z]

That's interesting, why different for a single vers. double??

 

[Razor]

That's interesting, why different for a single vers. double??

Volume. As you crank up the volume you displace more fuel.. this moves the target down.

Meth has a stoich of 7:1 vs 14.7:1 for gasoline.

As you increase HP and try to control knock, you need a higher volume of meth.

make sense?

 

[jasjamz]

Razor, does the a/f rise if you use 100 or 110oct?

 

[Razor]

Razor, does the a/f rise if you use 100 or 110oct?

Air fuel is the ratio of air and fuel. If you change octane it is still the same fuel. So whether it's 87 octane or 116 octane the stoich is still the same.

Now running higher octane allows less
Methanol to be used thus running a leaner afr

 

[it's just a six]

So when guys are tuning for meth,,,, when just running the engine w/no meth injected, are the engines A/F ratio ,say about,just for example 11.2 - 11.8 & then inject meth & richen the mixture to 10.0 - 11.0 range?

Do guys make there A/F ratios really lean ,say 12.5 - 13.0 or leaner w/no meth,then w/meth injected,richen the mixture to 10.0 - 11.0 range?
Hope that makes sense.

This way the engine could run more boost,but if anything went wrong w/the meth inj,the engine would most likely break something. Like a piston

I use a J&S safegaurd,that really works good & helps prevent the engine from detonating.


For basically semi stock Syclones running pump gas Nolan http://www.campbellautomotive.com/1000hpv6.wmv
likes to tune the Syclone A/F ratio to 10.8,any leaner while boosting more than stock,he says the engine would tend to detonate.

I know my engine liked to run good w/a A/R ratio of 10.8 - 11.0 on pump gas.

Thanks

 

[Razor]

So when guys are tuning for meth,,,, when just running the engine w/no meth injected, are the engines A/F ratio ,say about,just for example 11.2 - 11.8 & then inject meth & richen the mixture to 10.0 - 11.0 range?

Do guys make there A/F ratios really lean ,say 12.5 - 13.0 or leaner w/no meth,then w/meth injected,richen the mixture to 10.0 - 11.0 range?
Hope that makes sense.

This way the engine could run more boost,but if anything went wrong w/the meth inj,the engine would most likely break something. Like a piston

I use a J&S safegaurd,that really works good & helps prevent the engine from detonating.


For basically semi stock Syclones running pump gas Nolan http://www.campbellautomotive.com/1000hpv6.wmv
likes to tune the Syclone A/F ratio to 10.8,any leaner while boosting more than stock,he says the engine would tend to detonate.

I know my engine liked to run good w/a A/R ratio of 10.8 - 11.0 on pump gas.

Thanks

See this is where you have your catch 22.

In a perfect world you tune the engine to run lets say 12:0:1 on pump gas and 10.8:1 on meth injection. The problem is you cant run any amount of decent boost on pump gas to say your safe if the injection "didnt work" If you could keep the boost levels low so it would be safe, then you can have this scenario. Like 14 PSI.

Now you want to run 25 PSI boost.. you have to crank in a lot of methanol so the engine does not detonate. You adjust your airfuel to lets say 10.8 and crank the methanol in.. motor does not detonate.. all is good. If the methanol system is shut off.. you will detonate the motor hard. Just like if your fuel pump failed, fuel pressure regulator hose popped off, fuel filter collapsed, you raced the truck with gas tank on empty, etc etc etc.

You need engine management to cover your bases. As you also need to make a safeguard based on wideband air fuel data.. and egt would be nice. These safeguards have to tie into your wastegate control so boost can be dropped to spring pressure=minimum.

All of this is neat.. and costs $$$. There is no simple solution to the quest. :redface:

 

[it's just a six]

Thanks Julio,
I will be tuning via through the ECU,w/most likely Moates.

Another question, just talking semi stock turbo 86-87 Regal engine,larger turbo,injectors,bolt on stuff basically.

Do you hear guys tuning the A/F ratio w/methanol (Alky control kit) as rich as 9.5 - 10.0, or richer,,& running about 25- 28 psi of boost?
Just curious.
Also, I have a M15 nozzle,what is the next size bigger in case I need one?

Thanks

 

[Razor]

You can be at 8:1 if you through enough fuel at it. But to make decent power, you need to be way leaner than 9 anything to one.

Biggest single is an M15. Go to twins from there.

Boost at 25-28 PSi is not the issue. knock is.

 

[it's just a six]

Biggest single is an M15. Go to twins from there.

Boost at 25-28 PSi is not the issue. knock is.

Ok, so if I use a set of dual nozzles that will flow more than one M15 , what would be that size or sizes?

I watch for knock like a hawk.:wink:

Thanks

 

[Razor]

Ok, so if I use a set of dual nozzles that will flow more than one M15 , what would be that size or sizes?

I watch for knock like a hawk.:wink:

Thanks

yeah. Typically twins are done on applications making some serious power. On 4cyl like 500 rwhp, 6cyl is 600 RWHP, 8cyl like 700 RWHP. Typically on a V6 making 600 RWHP your looking at 25 GPH worth of nozzle = M15 + M10

If your not making the power do not put a twin nozzle. All it does is aggravates tuning.

You only need methanol for knock. Spraying higher volumes when not needed only leads to no notable increase in anything but headaches. Its not nitrous.

 

[it's just a six]

You only need methanol for knock. Spraying higher volumes when not needed only leads to no notable increase in anything but headaches. Its not nitrous.

Ok,

For now,I am not able to pull enough fuel so I can add more methanol.

The richest A/F ratio it will go now is 10.8 w/the knob @ number 8.

I do not see any leaks in the methanol kit ,the only possible leak could be is inside my intercooler where I mounted the nozzle?

All I can say is,that I can go through a tank of methanol in a very short time,maybe equivalent to 6 1/4 mile passes?

But can't say for sure, because I was just using the test feature a lot also to chill the intake manifold,before going w.o.t. blasts.

Seems like it's using more than it should be,,,but,, I have nothing to judge it by.
I had an Aqaumist 1S sytem, & that did not pump much @ all.

I'll need to do some of the trouble shooting as you suggested.
I should be seeing the green LED light come on when I am injecting,I do see the red light come on.
Plus you told me to turn the screw on the top of the pump 1/4 turn CCW to increase pressure.

Thanks

 

[Razor]

Your doing some things backawards

The idea of the test button is to purge the kit so no air is in the lines and you dont get a lean spike. Not to chill the intake before a WOT blast.

The screw on top of the pump has nothing to do with how much is shot in. It only moves the pressure at which point the turnon led changes from red to green. Example we set the switch to 50 PSI. Meaning when the pump hits 50 psi, the led changes from red to green. You turn the screw inward and it increases the pressure. so now it turns from red to green at 70 psi. meaning it now takes longer to change colors. But has nothing to do with amount.

The way you get more alcohol into the motor is by using the controller. I think your spraying too much alcohol for your engine. Typically all you do with my kit is set the knob on 6, leave the settings inside the box like I set them.. and tune your airfuel.. like using the moates deal. If you pickup a little knock.. move the knob from 6 to 6.5. A little at a time.

Your thinking cranking the knob to 8 then tuning around the kit. This just consumes way more than you need. And leads to thinking I need more. The start of this thread.

So.. put the allen screw on the pump back to where it was at, make sure the kit activates at 7 psi boost(goes red) and watch it go green at 10-12 PSI. If it does this.. this is a great place to start.

get your moates setup and start adjusting air fuel at lower boost levels like 15-18 psi using the wideband.. once there and dialed in.. work on 20 psi.. then 22.. then 24.. etc.

Stop chilling the intake, it may lead to a backfire with consequences. If your datalogging intake air temps.. you'd know that it wasnt needed.

Hope this helps.

 

[it's just a six]

Julio,
I do know what the purge /test button is for.I am just excited to see the meth super chills the intake manifold.
I also see that the mat's are really low when injecting the meth.
I am just playing around sort to speak,& am just checking out the differences between this kit & the Aquamist kit,really no comparision,your kit it much better as being able to supress detonation & run higher boost pressures.

I have not adjusted the switch on top of the pump , just a a little worried about the green LED light not coming on in the lower knob settings.
It does turn on when I turn the knob to 8 ,but as I told you it takes approx 2 seconds to switch from red to green, while just depressing the test button.

I did look to see when the red light comes on, & is aprrox 6 psi,sounds correct?

I will look closer to see if the green light turns on @ 10-12 psi,,a little hard to look @ while driving & looking for knock.

Thanks for your help, much appreciated.

Rick

 

[Razor]

Just roll into the pedal raising the boost. If you mash the pedal then too many things are going on. 6-7 is normal for turnon. As you turn the knob down it will be delayed in changing from red to green as the voltage curve applied to the pump is less. If you put the knob on 6 for example and you dont see it changing at 12 psi but lets say 15 psi.. rolling into the pedal.. then go inside the PAC box and increase(CW) the "Initial". So if the Initial is pointed to 11:45.. bump it to 12:00. Small adjustment at a time. That control is sensitive.. a little goes a long way. And you'll see the LED change sooner. The Initial increases delivery across the board.

Get the lower stuff hammered out.. then work on the big boost.

Yes I know.. my system outflows everybody elses Thanks for the comparison

 

[bigdwg03]

If a/f ratio for gas is 14.7:1 and alky is 7:1 when you inject the alky and get 10:1-11:1 a/f ratios is the computer going to sense the rich condition and try to lean it out?

 

[bigdwg03]

I don't think it does just curious as to why it doesn't....

 

[Slow91z]

I don't think it does just curious as to why it doesn't....

At WOT the computer doesn't read AFR, it locks onto a preset fuel "map" and that's it.

 

[Razor]

If a/f ratio for gas is 14.7:1 and alky is 7:1 when you inject the alky and get 10:1-11:1 a/f ratios is the computer going to sense the rich condition and try to lean it out?

Not on a stock computer it doesnt.

Once your MAF hits 255.. it opens the injectors based on how many psi the chip was burned for. Example a street 16 psi chip opens the injectors 60% and race chip opens the injectors 90%. Your boost is adjusted to compliment the chip.. and whalla. there you have it.

There are "now" SD chips and conversions that allow the computer to add/takeout fuel at wot to get you to a target afr. But thats a whole other issue.