A/F ratios of typical methanol inj alkycontrol

[it's just a six]

With my Syclone, 4.3 V-6, I have been tuning for around 10.3 A/F ratio while spraying meth. I am running 25 psi , my timing is as high as 18* & am seeing as much as 5 degrees of knock @ times & then it goes away.

I am slowly increasing the timing & it really seems to like more timing, I was running just 14 * timing & currently runinng 18*.

It seems you Buick guys run 21-23* of timing on pump 93 octane w/about 24 psi.

I am thinking I could possibly get to 21 or more degrees of timing, but since I have knock in a few areas & I am running 91 octane, I am a little hesitant to increase the timing.

I think the Chevy V-6 engine in my Syclone might have a little bit better quench area than the stock Buick 3.8 heads, & might be a little bit less likely to detonate? Maybe not.

My tune is not perfect by any means.

All seems pretty good, but I am thinking it might be too rich, so I am debating on leaning out the A/F ratio & bring it closer to 10.8 or so.

I am just a little worried about getting more knock by having a leaner mixture.

Typically, you guys that have runs in the low 10's A/F ratio & have gone leaner to the upper 10's did you guys see a lot more knock?

I know I will only know when I do some more testing & tuning to actually find out what A/F & timing I can run, I just would like to hear if any of you guys have any experience sinarios I am currently dealing with.

Thank you.

 

[Razor]

With my Syclone, 4.3 V-6, I have been tuning for around 10.3 A/F ratio while spraying meth. I am running 25 psi , my timing is as high as 18* & am seeing as much as 5 degrees of knock @ times & then it goes away.

I am slowly increasing the timing & it really seems to like more timing, I was running just 14 * timing & currently runinng 18*.

It seems you Buick guys run 21-23* of timing on pump 93 octane w/about 24 psi.

I am thinking I could possibly get to 21 or more degrees of timing, but since I have knock in a few areas & I am running 91 octane, I am a little hesitant to increase the timing.

I think the Chevy V-6 engine in my Syclone might have a little bit better quench area than the stock Buick 3.8 heads, & might be a little bit less likely to detonate? Maybe not.

My tune is not perfect by any means.

All seems pretty good, but I am thinking it might be too rich, so I am debating on leaning out the A/F ratio & bring it closer to 10.8 or so.

I am just a little worried about getting more knock by having a leaner mixture.

Typically, you guys that have runs in the low 10's A/F ratio & have gone leaner to the upper 10's did you guys see a lot more knock?

I know I will only know when I do some more testing & tuning to actually find out what A/F & timing I can run, I just would like to hear if any of you guys have any experience sinarios I am currently dealing with.

Thank you.

Well there are two kinds of knock. False and real. Real knock goes away when you reduce load(boost/timing) or add octane. False knock will not change reguardless of timing or boost.

Now.. you say you have knock, if so identify it as real or false. Easy way is to simply drop boost. If it goes away.. you have your answer.

If the motor is picking up knock.... Do not add additional timing or higher boost while its knocking. Or you will knock the rod out of the side of the block. Its like your head hurts and I ask if I can squeeze it harder. The answer is simple..

Timing at 14 degree's to me is on the very low side. I would have started tuning at 18 degree's and 20 PSI boost. Get the AFR's in the mid 10's.. like 10.5:1 and zero knock. Once there I would add boost and keep the 18 degree timing and watch to see if the vehicle "Makes more power" using a track or dyno. If increasing boost it doesnt go faster... you stop right there and figure out why. You add boost as the motor makes more power... you will eventually hit a wall in performance.

Just because it allows additional boost doesnt mean it makes more power.

What can I say. Every motor is different. Its not smart to run a motor when its seeing knock. At that point back out or its going to pop.

Hope this helps.

 

[it's just a six]

Thanks Julio,
it does help & I do appreciate it.

Initially the bin file I downloded, the timing table was as low as 9* of timing & saw some knock retard, so my friend & I reduced the timing down to 5 degrees, the KR's seem to stay the same, we were thinking, how can it be knocking w/9 * timing & w/5 degrees of timing & running approx 19 psi while injecting methanol.

I will try & see if the knock is real or false. I am thinking it is false because it is not consistant doing back to back runs & the shown KR is in different areas.
Going from 14* to 18* of timing , the trucks midrange & top end really picked up in power, power you could feel. KR's were not any higher & not in the same areas uppon reviewing the datalog.
That is why I am thinking there is some false knock. My friend & I never hear any audible knock, & I know you cannot always hear the engine knocking, just saying.

Anyways, I will do some more datalogs & turn the boost down to 15 or so PSI & see what I get for knock.

Thanks again.

 

[bison]

IMO there are no typical a/f numbers. The more power per hole and more timing run the richer it needs to be or the cylinders get hot. At 100hp per hole 10.3-10.4:1 is safe with timing at 20 actual. If you don't know what your actual timing is you need to find out.

 

[it's just a six]

Not sure what the comment is for about what my actual timing is?
Previous quote: " I was running just 14 * timing & currently runinng 18*".

I stated what timing I had run & what timing I am currently at.

Thank you.

 

[TurboTYPHOON]

Not sure what the comment is for about what my actual timing is?
Previous quote: " I was running just 14 * timing & currently runinng 18*".

I stated what timing I had run & what timing I am currently at.

Thank you.

He is saying get a timing light unplug the brown wire and check to make sure that it is set on 0*. Also make sure that the balancer has not "slipped".

 

[it's just a six]

Thanks.
I have checked the timing w/the tan wire w/black stripe unplugged.
It is @ 0* & the damper has not slipped.

 

[larry33kc]

Where is that wire to unplug. I need to check my timing.

I no I can't get my timing light to light up to check it.

 

[bison]

Not sure what the comment is for about what my actual timing is?
Previous quote: " I was running just 14 * timing & currently runinng 18*".

I stated what timing I had run & what timing I am currently at.

Thank you.

Your timing accuracy is only as good as your ability to verify the zero on your timing tab is actually true tdc. If it hasnt been verified then you dont know your actual mechanical timing. You may have already done this but 99% of anyone who posts here has not. If you want to make a lot of power on 93/alky you need to know your actual timing.

 

[TurboTYPHOON]

Where is that wire to unplug. I need to check my timing.

I no I can't get my timing light to light up to check it.

Original poster has a Syclone. Where is your Syclone?

 

[Razor]

Thanks Julio,
it does help & I do appreciate it.

Initially the bin file I downloded, the timing table was as low as 9* of timing & saw some knock retard, so my friend & I reduced the timing down to 5 degrees, the KR's seem to stay the same, we were thinking, how can it be knocking w/9 * timing & w/5 degrees of timing & running approx 19 psi while injecting methanol.

I will try & see if the knock is real or false. I am thinking it is false because it is not consistant doing back to back runs & the shown KR is in different areas.
Going from 14* to 18* of timing , the trucks midrange & top end really picked up in power, power you could feel. KR's were not any higher & not in the same areas uppon reviewing the datalog.
That is why I am thinking there is some false knock. My friend & I never hear any audible knock, & I know you cannot always hear the engine knocking, just saying.

Anyways, I will do some more datalogs & turn the boost down to 15 or so PSI & see what I get for knock.

Thanks again.

Did you bring boost down to 15? Does it still knock? If so.. you have something else going on.

Sometimes stupid things like a timing chain can cause the knock sensor to go off.

 

[larry33kc]

Oh crap I wasn't paying attention to that, sorry. I need to do my T

 

[it's just a six]

Did you bring boost down to 15? Does it still knock? If so.. you have something else going on.

Sometimes stupid things like a timing chain can cause the knock sensor to go off.

Not as of yet, soon though.
I need to remove an external helper spring I added to the wastegate.

The engine has about 13,000 miles on it.

I will post my results after I reduce the boost.

 

[it's just a six]

Update,
I brought the boost down to 15 PSI, knock is less, I also lowered the injection gain knob down to 6 on the control head unit, that made the engine get less knock.

Before I had the controller set to max & the engine would get more knock initially.

Now I am running 19-21 psi range & am seeing up to approx 2-3 degrees of knock & then goes away, but once I see the engine get more loaded down when in 4th gear I start to get some more knock. I reduced the timing 1-2 degrees in that area of the timing table on Tuner Pro 5 RT. Have not tested it since I adjusted the timing table.
Will post back when I get more info.

I am using code 59.

 

[Razor]

Update,
I brought the boost down to 15 PSI, knock is less, I also lowered the injection gain knob down to 6 on the control head unit, that made the engine get less knock.

Before I had the controller set to max & the engine would get more knock initially.

Now I am running 19-21 psi range & am seeing up to approx 2-3 degrees of knock & then goes away, but once I see the engine get more loaded down when in 4th gear I start to get some more knock. I reduced the timing 1-2 degrees in that area of the timing table on Tuner Pro 5 RT. Have not tested it since I adjusted the timing table.
Will post back when I get more info.

I am using code 59.

Technically you should be able to run 15 psi boost without meth injection on your setup. Timing may be reduced but non the less a clean pull. This is where you have to start. You start at zero knock all the way around then work up. The way your post reads is it has some knock then boost is reduced.. then timing is reduced. Your going at this backwards. Until the truck makes 100% clean passes there is no way to help you. No reason to add meth injection. Sometimes we hail Mary tuning and crank stuff up with the best intentions... but when that doesnt work, you have to bite the bullet and go to ground zero on the tuning.

So get it to run clean at lower boost, however you can, then work on increasing the boost by introducing the methanol. This way we can be sure its not false knock. You shouldnt get knock at lower boost levels, if you do something is wrong.

 

[it's just a six]

Technically you should be able to run 15 psi boost without meth injection on your setup. Timing may be reduced but non the less a clean pull. This is where you have to start. You start at zero knock all the way around then work up. The way your post reads is it has some knock then boost is reduced.. then timing is reduced. Your going at this backwards. Until the truck makes 100% clean passes there is no way to help you. No reason to add meth injection. Sometimes we hail Mary tuning and crank stuff up with the best intentions... but when that doesnt work, you have to bite the bullet and go to ground zero on the tuning.

So get it to run clean at lower boost, however you can, then work on increasing the boost by introducing the methanol. This way we can be sure its not false knock. You shouldnt get knock at lower boost levels, if you do something is wrong.

At 15 psi, I was basically getting zero knock, maybe 1 - 2 degrees for a split second then would go to 0.
Here in cali, pump gas is 91 octane, not 93.

I had more knock when I was running 20 + psi of boost, I then turned down the boost like you suggested down to 15 psi, I would then only get 1 -2 degrees of knock for a split second, then it would completely go away.
I did not adjust/lower the timing after I lowered the boost..

I then increased the boost to 20 PSI & then I saw a few degrees of knock in a couple spots during my W.O.T. runs,,, I then reduced the timing in those couple spots & have not tested it since the reduced timing spots.

I see that Eric TT is making chips for the Sy/Ty guys & noticed that his knock indicator light does not light up until the engine sees more than 4 degrees, I had asked him why w/no responce.

I had said, is it because if the engine is seeing 4 degrees or less knock there is not a reason to worry about it?

So far, it seems pretty hard to get a complete pass w/out seeing some knock during a pass. The air changes, hotter or colder days, pump gas is not consistant w/octane.

Like I said before,, I am only seeing 1 - 2 degrees of knock for a split second & only once in a while, (not everytime) it is not always the same pass after pass, a little aggrevating.
The way it sounds to me, is that I work on getting a clean pass (clean, meaning absolutly no knock for an entire run?)
Then, after I get no knock, I can work on bringing the boost pressure up & add methanol to it as to avoid knock, correct?

So @ that point, when I am adding more boost & methanol, I do not add any timing since I am adding methanol?

I thought a main advantage of injecting methanol is that you can run more boost, but I also thought the other advantage was you can run more timing.
Yes, or no?

I thought about having two timing tables, one for no meth injected, & have a second timing table would be one w/more aggressive timing when injecting methanol.

Am I not thinking correct?

 

[Razor]

Knock can only be two things. Real or false. The thing is trying to decipher if its real or false is where lies the trouble when you rely on that sensor for tuning. If its false.. then no amount of octane or tuning will eliminate it. Sometimes if you have a suspension part hitting increasing power levels makes the false knock worse. Like a broken motor mount for example.

Me.. I do my tuning in high gear and that eliminates the suspension shifts and transmission variables that can create knock. I roll into the throttle and bring boost up and record the run. I go back and playback the data and see where I can make an adjustment that affords a positive change.

Yes methanol allows higher timing and higher boost. But when your chasing a knock demon... that has to be figured before putting a lot of squeeze on the motor. Just like putting 100 or 110 gas in the tank allows higher timing and boost.

Now. Me.. I have one timing table. Simple. No need for multiple tables. That buries you quick. You need to be able and replicate clean pulls on the motor . Whether they be 50-90 MPH or 40-80, or ??? you need the knock to be at zero. Repeatedly. This establishes the baseline. Once you have a certain way of running the motor without knock... repeatedly.. then you can start increasing boost and watching knock. Once you get the boost to the level you want, then start adding timing.
Now you need to be methodical on your tuning. And control the urge to make 5 changes at once.

Now as to Eric and the 4 degree's.. it could be your trucks pickup random false knock and he figures dont worry about it. I had a Turbo Trans Am and at 25+ PSI boost on the 1-2 shift it would register 40 degree's of knock. It was false, the transmission was making the noise.. fix.. we put knock ignore on the chip from 0-45 mph. Point is if I tried to fix that knock with timing or alcohol.. it would of driven me crazy.

I rather run boost than timing. Thats me. Once your out of turbo add timing for more power. Since your on 91 octane.. 13 PSI should be doable on 16/17 degree's timing. Leave the timing at 16/17 degree's and roll the methanol in target 10.8:1 afr and put a few lbs into it. .. go from there.. you should after a few passes be able and get over 20 psi without knock repeatedly as stated above.

The false knock... thats its own can of worms.

Hope this helps.

 

[it's just a six]

Hey guys, just an update on my Syclone.
I dynoed it last Sunday on same dynapak as I did some time ago.
I started w/17 psi of boost & worked my up to 25PSI.
I started w/my control knob set @ #5, did a pull, turned it to 6 did a pull,made less power, set it to #4 did a pull made less power, turned it back to #5 & it made the most power there.
Here is a pic of the first & last dyno pulls

It made 396 HP & 604 ft lbs of torque for the final two pulls.

The engine is a 100% stock untouched longblock.
IIRC the A/F ratio was around 9.8 while spraying 100% methanol.

The printer @ the dyno shop was out of ink so I will get them later to see the rest of info.