Another rear sway bar thread

[IrvJr]

I asked about the diff between the 1" and 1 1/8" bar, about the single bolt for the mount to the cross member. He gave me the rates for each mount hole on each bar for comparison and said there have been no complaints or issues about the single mount and he has the same bar on his car and auto X's and drives it hard and never had an issue. Those all sounded like good answers to me. The Hellwig barhardware just did not look good to me, so the extra $100 was worth my peace of mind.

 

[scot w.]

I also have the dse front and rear bars in my car. My only complaint is that they mount to the rear crossmember in the rear with a single shear mount and the silly links that they use vs a double shear like the most other bars and a rod end link.the posi link things make it rather difficult to adjust the bar vs a rod end. The double shear mounts are stronger and will clamp and support the load across the crossmember more than the single shear. But I did come up with somewhat of a solution for that. The front bar mounts further forward than the stock bar which will interfere with any frame braces you may already have probably the reason they include them in the kit. Granted you could probably get away with shimming the braces away from the frame to make them work.
I bought the bigger rear bar from dse since my car will eventually have my stage motor in it with a decent amount of power so I wanted the stiffer rate bar. Once again having suspension that works together is key for optimal performance. It also comes down to how much you want to spend as you can def spend less and get a decent working suspension. Lots of options



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I happen to agree on the single bolt mount but in DSE's defense and that design I have never had a problem with it at all... I nut & bolt check the car before and after each autocross event or drag race and never spotted any issues...

I would like to see them use a similar L-bracket with double bolt holes on that one side...

 

[scot w.]

I asked about the diff between the 1" and 1 1/8" bar, about the single bolt for the mount to the cross member. He gave me the rates for each mount hole on each bar for comparison and said there have been no complaints or issues about the single mount and he has the same bar on his car and auto X's and drives it hard and never had an issue. Those all sounded like good answers to me. The Hellwig barhardware just did not look good to me, so the extra $100 was worth my peace of mind.

We will get your bar out to you right away Irv, Thank you for your order!

 

[nonosv6]

That's good news Scott. Glad there you haven't had any problems yet with it. ESP since you do put your car in competition and work the suspension hard ,it's reassuring that they won't at least be an immediate problem. Hopefully no problem ever.
That being said though, without some extra support that area of the crossmember is inherently weak and has been known to crack. So for good measures I'm going to reinforce it and use different hardware for mounting it. It is only stamped steel and after awhile of it bending back and forth even slightly it will crack. I think Paul gives a good explanation of this on the h&r website. There's lots of reasons why the double shear mount with a backing plate that clamps the crossmember in between is better than the single shear mount. the least technical being that the weight is distributed over a greater area and the crossmember is supported from the backside by the additional plate. These comments aren't really directed at anyone just trying to help people with the info I've gathered.


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[nonosv6]

Over all the dse bar is a nice piece. I bought them when they first came out directly from dse. My set were one of the first made so I had no instructions that came with them. But I did work with them through email they got me some pictures and measurements and helpfull support. And they sent me updated front swaybar mounts after a slight design change overnite and for free just to make sure everything was good. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm happy with their product and service. Please excuse any irrelevant babble as I have just had knee surgery and the pain meds make my brain wonder and ramble on more than usually. Haha. Joel.


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[IrvJr]

So im told that you cant use a taller upper ball joint without changing upper control arms?

 

[charlief1]

Sure can Irv. Top and/or bottom.

 

[nonosv6]

I think it's suggested that u use adjustable uppers or corrected uppers for optimal geometry and correction for what ever the taller ball joints through into the mix. But Charlie probably has a more in depth explanation of why you may or may not need them. I like mine and makes alignment adjustments easy.


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[charlief1]

If using a stock or Blazer steering knuckle you really don't need the different arms. The reason for the different arms started out in circle track racing. The G body and original S-10 (same units) have 2 issues. The brakes are crap when doing hard braking and the arm that the outer tie rod attaches to bends under heavy stress. The A and B body knuckles have better brakes and don't bend nearly as easily, but they're not on the same angles as the stock knuckles. The other benefit to A and B body knuckles is that they're taller which corrects some of the suspension geometry, but they can cause severe bump steer issues By just going with taller ball joints you shouldn't have any problems with alignment specs and it won't change any of the bump steer, but it will correct the camber curve issues while cornering.

 

[IrvJr]

I called speedway and the guy I talked to was a douche. When doing research a little while back I remember seeing people use 1/2" taller lowers and 3/4" taller uppers. And I think I recall them being off a older Chevy truck too. Anyone have part numbers for the taller ball joints so I can find them and order them?

 

[charlief1]

76-78 Chevy with a 6 cylinder, but you'll need a reamer to modify the knuckles so the shafts will fit.

 

[IrvJr]

Is that for both top and bottom? Has anyone done that without any issue?

 

[charlief1]

We;ve done it on dirt cars quite a bit Irv. The truck ball joints hold up better than the stock one and will take a serious beating.

 

[IrvJr]

How much reaming needs to be done?

 

[charlief1]

Not a whole lot Irv, but once it's done you can't go back to a stock joint. The bottom you can cheat by enlarging the hole at the top where the stud pokes through. The taper's the same but the top won't let the threaded section of the stud out. Drill it slightly larger and the larger bottom joint will work, but the top will need to be reamed to fit. From the guys that came up with this idea is where the "suspension" companies figured out how to make their parts and kits. Home grown engineering after all is even how Henry Ford started.

 

[scot w.]

That right there is a fine example the difference between mocking up another OEM part to fit VS a bolt on part from another manufacture that has already done this home work so to speak....yeah you pay alittle more but in the end you do Much Less work.....

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[IrvJr]

I think I ill wait a bit on that part of my project. Probably save up for new uppers and do it right. Thanks for all the info Charlie and Scot

 

[nonosv6]

I've talked to some cool people there and some asshats. People with knowledge and people without.
Why do you wanna get stock ones for a truck when they make them for gbodies now? They are not that much more expensive. Just remember by going to the 1/2" taller upper and lower ball joints it's gonna drop the front of the car almost and inch. Just be fore warned. I think procar makes some cheaper ones. I did buy the howes, but they have an adjustable preload and are rebuildable. But you do pay some more $$ for them.


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[charlief1]

The only real advantage to going with the truck ball joints is ease of replacement. When the idea of doing it started was in the late 80's early 90's and there weren't a lot of options out there. Once it was proven that taller ball joints helped the geometry of the suspension the after market started taking notice and making parts like tubular A arms and taller ball joints for a metric chassis. You can find tall ball joints in just about every price range and 99% of the time, unless you buy ones that can be rebuilt, there's not enough difference between the expensive ones and the "cheapys" to make it worth the extra expense of the high dollar ones.

 

[nonosv6]

thats why i bought the rebuildable ones. i figured at least i wont have to replace the whole unit . just can rebuild them easy enough .plus the fact i can adjust them,it didnt seem like to bad a deal .