Blown engine due to alcohol?

[John Purdom]

I'm not meaning to ruffle anyone's feathers here, but that bird may have already flown anyway. How many here have lost/damaged a motor from an alcohol injection system failure/or run the system out of alcohol?

Nothing is perfect, and I'm already onboard with a system. I just want to fully understand the pitfalls to best manage risk.

 

[salvageV6]

You'd have to be an idiot to run an alky. kit out of alky.

That would be any kit, assuming a typical stock block car that actually gets driven and maintained once in a while.

Just as likely a chance of running a race car out of race fuel in MHO.

Blowing head gaskets is easier I would think, from reading most of the Buick websites, but that's on ALL levels and mostly due to tuning anyway, or the lack of it.

Some people run their cars out of oil as well.

 

[John Purdom]

If you read twin 93 svt's reply to my post "safe alcohol" in the alcohol section, he says that 9 out of 10 blown engines that come thru his shop are related to alcohol systems. That's significant. If you read the whole thread, you'll see that I apparently p*ssed razor off by daring to even ask such a question, so my reference to running the system out of alcohol was an attempt at diplomacy. It would seem that things like diplomacy and subtilty are lost on some here, so I'll tell you...I'm no idiot, I'll neither run the system out of alcohol, nor the engine out of oil. I fully understand the implications of an improper tune, and vehicle care. Your comments in relation to those obvious issues miss the point of my question, and are totally irrelevant. If they were an attempt at humor, keep your day job.

If you read my sig, you understand that I have alot of money invested in my car, as many here do. I think the question is a valid one, and deserves better than smart-ass answers about having elephants fall on your car, or running it out of oil.

I already have the system, so obviously I believe it's a worthwhile performance enhancement. I want to know how commonly these systems fail, what kind of failures have been experienced, and how to best prevent a failure/maintain the system. I do believe there are a few here that have run a system low on alcohol by whatever means, and I wouldn't assume to call them idiots. I'll leave that to the vastly superior intellects, like "salvage".. Just want some real world experiences here. Would have never thought this question to be so contraversial.

 

[Razor]

If you read twin 93 svt's reply to my post "safe alcohol" in the alcohol section, he says that 9 out of 10 blown engines that come thru his shop are related to alcohol systems. That's significant. If you read the whole thread, you'll see that I apparently p*ssed razor off by daring to even ask such a question, so my reference to running the system out of alcohol was an attempt at diplomacy. It would seem that things like diplomacy and subtilty are lost on some here, so I'll tell you...I'm no idiot, I'll neither run the system out of alcohol, nor the engine out of oil. I fully understand the implications of an improper tune, and vehicle care. Your comments in relation to those obvious issues miss the point of my question, and are totally irrelevant. If they were an attempt at humor, keep your day job.

If you read my sig, you understand that I have alot of money invested in my car, as many here do. I think the question is a valid one, and deserves better than smart-ass answers about having elephants fall on your car, or running it out of oil.

I already have the system, so obviously I believe it's a worthwhile performance enhancement. I want to know how commonly these systems fail, what kind of failures have been experienced, and how to best prevent a failure/maintain the system. I do believe there are a few here that have run a system low on alcohol by whatever means, and I wouldn't assume to call them idiots. I'll leave that to the vastly superior intellects, like "salvage".. Just want some real world experiences here. Would have never thought this question to be so contraversial.

Why would you think you upset me by asking such a question. On the contrary, it is valid. And it is this "question" that pushes the reliabilty forward on the kits currently available from myself and SMC. If the systems were perfect, why would anything be changed?

You asked a valid question, I went and added some posts as to the thought process involved in making a protection system in case of failure. To which.. nothing new has changed..

No feathers ruffled, the statement by twin 93 svt.. news to me.. As a matter of fact, one of ANS most loyal customer runs my kit.. no failures. 9 out of 10 due to alky related failures.. yeah..

Maybe look at the answer this way, what components make up a kit? Address each one to be as bullet proof as possible.. Then you have done the best you can trying to avoid a failure.

Greed will take out more motors than anything else. Always has.. especially when it comes to boost.

 

[John Purdom]

Why would you think you upset me by asking such a question. On the contrary, it is valid. And it is this "question" that pushes the reliabilty forward on the kits currently available from myself and SMC. If the systems were perfect, why would anything be changed?

You asked a valid question, I went and added some posts as to the thought process involved in making a protection system in case of failure. To which.. nothing new has changed..

No feathers ruffled, the statement by twin 93 svt.. news to me.. As a matter of fact, one of ANS most loyal customer runs my kit.. no failures. 9 out of 10 due to alky related failures.. yeah..

Maybe look at the answer this way, what components make up a kit? Address each one to be as bullet proof as possible.. Then you have done the best you can trying to avoid a failure.

Greed will take out more motors than anything else. Always has.. especially when it comes to boost.

Thank you, Julio, for thoughtful answers to my questions. I had already made the assumption that development and advancements in these systems are what you and Steve have accomplished, and they would not have come without a need. I thought I may have ruffled your feathers as you manufacture and sell these kits, and the "elephant falling on the car" answer seemed to make light of the question. Believe me, I am not wanting to hear that failure is common.

I've been baffled by the implications of a few here that it's anal-retentive to try to make everything on our cars as right as it can be. I know very well how sensative to tune these cars are, and when performing their best they operate within a narrow window. I ask those questions for the same reason I added billet mains and forged pistons when the motor was built, despite all that will say they go fast without them. There's a miriad of things that can go south and make a boom. I just like to elminate as many as I can. After that, I'm sure not shy about turning up the wick.

Once again, I am respectful of both your reputation and Steve's, and appreciate the support you seem to give freely.

I had never thought about one of these systems in concert with an NOS system, and would like to explore that possibility for my Corvette. Ironically, it's the added insurance against detonation that alky injection would offer that appeals to me, not trying to make more HP. Hope that doesn't get me kicked off the Corvette forum.

Peace

 

[salvageV6]

"How many here have lost/damaged a motor from an alcohol injection system failure/or run the system out of alcohol?"

You really need to read your own posts before you reply.

And you are a perfect candidate for a race gas tune.

I don't read much into the questions asked here and I guess if you were smart enough to link into the diplomacy thread and not ask twisted logic questions you'd get better answers.

It certainly was obvious only inside your own head.

Most people won't tell you they lost a headgasket due to their own tuning let alone that running alky. caused it as well.

I'm sure you'll get tons of folks with blown alky. motors replying soon.... :biggrin:

 

[Paul Clark]

Legitimate (I hope) suggestion -
An audible warning buzzer/beeper/siren/whatever... that sounds when the alky level gets low - not empty.
An "off" switch for it could be included.
That little red warning light doesn't get my attention.
Just an idea.
There is a GN in my friend's shop right now with a blown engine because he ran it out of alky. Of course, I'm much smarter than that.
Paul

 

[salvageV6]

That could easily be added to the SMC kit with a buzzer from radio shack and a toggle switch. Good idea for those that hide or can't see the LED.

Not sure what it would do to the warranty however, easily installed and undone.

I'd put that switch on a 10 minute timer circuit however to retrigger the beep.

Don't know about the other kits or DIY.

 

[John Purdom]

"How many here have lost/damaged a motor from an alcohol injection system failure/or run the system out of alcohol?"

You really need to read your own posts before you reply.

And you are a perfect candidate for a race gas tune.

I don't read much into the questions asked here and I guess if you were smart enough to link into the diplomacy thread and not ask twisted logic questions you'd get better answers.

It certainly was obvious only inside your own head.

Most people won't tell you they lost a headgasket due to their own tuning let alone that running alky. caused it as well.

I'm sure you'll get tons of folks with blown alky. motors replying soon.... :biggrin:

I've read my own posts, and still don't understand why the original question was unresaonable.

The alcohol is for the street. The car will have a race gas tune for the track.

It may have been a misguided attempt to be diplomatic by including "running out of alcohol" as part of my question. I think I explained that. But please, enlighen me further as to your "link to the diplomacy thread". I guess starting your 1st reply with "you have to be an idiot..." was taken from the diplomacy thread handbook. You might consider reading your own posts before you reply...

Yes, you're right. The fact that other things can go wrong with a car besides the failure of an alcohol system were, in my mind, obvious. If you were serious in trying to warn me about running my car without oil, my bad, and thanks for the tip.

Look, I'm glad to hear alcohol has worked well for everyone. But I don't like the implication that asking about it's failure rate, and the symtoms that caused them is absurd. The answer from SVT seems to validate the question.
I'm not going to be talked down to by you, salvage, without responding. If you're used to people just rolling over when you make snide remarks like "You would have to be an idiot" and "you could run the car out of oil", sorry, I won't.

I hope you'll forgive me for not including the eyerolling thing in my answer here. Just seems to represent the efforts of a man who's run out of thought.

I thank everyone here who has not dismissed the question, and offered up reasonable answers, especially Julio. My intent was not to implicate your system in any negative light. The fact is, as you know, I emailed you and asked when you could ship me your system. When you said you lacked a component to ship a complete order, I went with the SMC unit, as the car was and is sitting at the tuners, and Steve had just completed a batch of kits ready to ship. I know I would be equally satisfied with the quality and service of both companies.

There is no point in the continuation of this war of words. I'm out.

 

[Jicaju]

I say piss on the KING! And once again.......... I'd do that myself.

 

[Bens87tr]

I had a previous alky kit fail. I did not lose my motor, not even a headgasket. No audible knock alarm either. Just good ears and quick eyes on the scanmaster let me know something wasn't right.



And Salvage, I've run my car with the low alky light on. Sometimes you can't predict when you'll run into something on the highway. But, I'm a self-proclaimed idiot.

 

[Razor]

John,
get the twin nozzle setup for your car. Do the twin 15's. As the list of mods are high.. that is if you havent done so already.

Jicaju.. whats that June Bug statement

 

[John Purdom]

My norton anti-virus just warned me that there is now a virus attached to this thread. Nice.

 

[XLR8]

Just an idae, but doesn't the Bosst Commander from Mike Light have an input that will lower boost? I know some people hook it to the 3rd gear switch, but couldn't it be hooked to a low alky light signal so when the alky is low boost gets scaled back 6# or so?

 

[Momar]

actually, it would be real easy to have 2 boost settings depending on what kind of boost control you run. I have a buddy that used on of the solenoids that comes on some cars for factory for smog and such stuff. I believe that our charcoal canister actually uses one. Basically it has 3 vac line hook ups. When it recieves an electrical signal, it diverts which of the 2 that the 3rd connects to. If you have the one connect to the wastegate actuator and then the default outlet go to your manual boost control valve that will allow it to run at your boost setting by your valve when it does not have power applied. Set it up so that the power that would turn on the led turns on a relay that supplies power to this solienoid, and it will open up a straight path to boost pressure. This will allow cause the boost to drop to whatever your actuator rod is set to. I had a buddy that wired up a set up like this on his turbo chrysler motor. It was pretty cool, because one way he could run 10lbs when just cruising or what not, but if he ran into a race, or went to the track he flipped the switch and was running 28 lbs.

Just an idea if you are that worried about it.

Ben

 

[Mack V]

http://www.xmission.com/~dempsey/perform/
The second from the last one is what most will want. I am a turbo dodge guy and it's very easy to do this. If you want you can have a three stage set-up. One for valet, street and race.

Michael Vaughn

 

[pacecarta]

Just an idae, but doesn't the Bosst Commander from Mike Light have an input that will lower boost? I know some people hook it to the 3rd gear switch, but couldn't it be hooked to a low alky light signal so when the alky is low boost gets scaled back 6# or so?

rolling around the street that might be fine , but nearly every time i launch with moderate 1.6s the alky low level goes on regardless of whats in the tank , and at launch or there after is not when i want things pulling my timing or boost or what have you , i think razor pointed this out early in the previous post before i could post it .

this has been stated in past posts but here goes again , there are so many "what ifs" conditionary failsafes that you could dream up to failsafe your alky system but youll never encompass all posibiliteis and youve also dramatically increased the cost . alky is just one item in a long list of things that has to work flawlessly to make a clean run and still have a motor left to drive home with , you are probably more likely to have a fuelpump or regulator failure which is potentially just as catostraphic , or a powermaster failure going out to 7-11 which could ruin your month , or have a tire blow out or an axle break and roll out , or have your lugs snap off , or have your shock go through your tire (it has happened) ,or have a tie rod break , or a ball joint
old line KISS "keep it simple stupit" , razor beleives this (i think he does) and that cuts down the possible areas for failure . if you feel the current kits arent safe enough try your ideas on your car and let me know how it works , I like tinkering and have a couple dozen ideas but know of so many ways things can fail i would be under the hood 24-7 (i'm the pesimist that looks at things and sees the possible failure).

now matter how hard you try ,sh## happens. ive run the tank dry and at boost levels that most alky users wouldnt dare to go and it still runs . how can this be ?? well , I run an audible knock (caspers) , when it goes off you cant help but lift , faster than any sensor or scanner that you dont have time to watch .
even with the low light off if you have a low tank you can run out of alky on a run (been there ) , you can also run out of fuel if you make a pass with less than 1/4 tank, (been there too :biggrin: )
any of these could have been catostrophic but it still lives .

bottom line, you are pushing a vehicle , a small six no less thats in a car built for your grandpa , to extremes that v8s only dream of and its up to you to know your car (both mechanical and tune limits) and do all you can to ensure it's longevity . you should get in the habit of checking your alky reservior , along with your oil and antifreeze and tire pressure and the list goes on and on...

 

[Grumpy]

interesting post ... I didnt installl the low alky light .. I fill it up everyday before leaving the house I have a new egt guage that will shut the motor down coming for Melissa's WE4 ... We have it on a 9 sec Camaro and it works awesome !!! maybe something to consider

 

[forcefed86]

Just a thought, but you could also rig up a pressure switch inline with the alky inj line for added assurance. Might want to hook it up so it shuts off IGN module if alky pressure gets to low?

It would have to be some sort of double pressure switch mechinism so that it wouldn't shut off IGN while not boosting. Like a 15 psi activation switch so any time the switch see's 15 psi and alky pressure in the line it will continue to run. If the inline alky switch press gets low it would then shut down the ign. system.

Would save you from pump failures and running out of alky. Although I've never heard of any of the shurflow pumps going bad yet. I have heard of the SMC pumps going out, usually due to people running methanol through them.

Haven't thoght it all out yet but it could work....

 

[pacecarta]

for a moment forget that you have alky on your car , since more motors have been killed without having an alky system even at low boost (back in the day and even still from those that dont want to run a boost gauge or a knock/O2 monitor like SM )

the other post hit on my thoughts for a failsafe (its on the other thread john started ,didnt read that till ater i thought of it last night)

what has great possibility and fits most scenarios is a patch in the chip code
its cost effective , foolproof (almost guaranteed to work and work fast)

a patch that and looks for low O2 mv (lets say 720mv) and should O2 drop below 720 during WOT (the current code has many ways of selecting what is WOT) then pull the timing, cut the boost solenoids (if you are still running one ) or better connect the wastegate solenoid output to a modified wastegate (or bolt on solenoid? )that could pysically open the wastegate and drop boost and possibly at the same time (i dont know if this would help but.. ) pulse the injectors wide open , letting off usually results in a dropping of nearly all fuel further exasterbating the lean condition your trying to avoid and further pushing the chance of the big bang ,


most KR results in timing retard caused by lack of fuel (alky or gas ) or too much timing for octane (preignition or combo of not enough fuel to cool the cylinder prevent the preignition , and the chip can pull the boost PW just on KR alone but sometimes you you get KR and you know its external or driveline during shifts and you dont want the car dieing for false KR .

or easier and i think safest is do a ignition drop (not timing retard ) .
some have express concerns about killing an engine by shutting it down (still dont know the whys on that) but if you want put it as a switchable feature for the ignition drop for those that dont fear having the engine cutoff to save it like when your at the track but are still reserved about cutting ignition on the street (even though once the motor blows your basically running dead anyway)