Finally into the 7’s in the 1/8th
- Thread starter esinger
- Start date
Id try running a tremendous amount of alky and pulling gas. Run straight 110 and keep the timing and boost up. Id bet you pick up a couple mph or more in the eighth. Ive always picked up mph on intercooled cars adding more alky than needed to suppress detonation and pulling DC out of the injectors. Car runs more consistent too. Even if its heat soaked. Seems like on a non intercooled car you would gain a bunch based on the inlet air temp dropping 150 degrees or more with the alky cranked. A 150 degree drop in intake air temp is theoretically a 15% gain in power.
This goes totally against what ive logged. The alky is responsible for almost 3mph in the time in my sig. No BS! The more alky you run the higher the oxygen content in the cylinder. The quickest and fastest cars that use alky use it for more than detonation suppression. I see oxygen in there (CH3OH), just like in all alcohols.. You will not gain crap with water other than detonation suppression and the fact the mixture will take less energy to fire. Water will not dissociate in the cylinder. It takes a lot of electric current to break the H2O molecule up. If it did it would detonate its balls off in about .1 seconds from all the O2 and hydrogen that would be available. Methanol has a high latent heat of vaporization and low boiling point which makes it ideal for liquid intercooling. It also supplies extra O2 to the mixture. If your losing power you need to re-evaluate your tune. Maybe you need a tighter plug gap, have a lean hole, or indicated a/f is off. Its workin on the 10.90 pass but id be greedy. I bet theres a little more mph in there with the proper mix. You could stand to gain 2 more mph from eighth to quarter even on that pass.
If you could get the alky to cool the charge in the intake that much then you would see a gain. With the set up we have injecting meth into the intake and reading intake temps we were not seeing any cooling effect. However with a razor kit you may see that. I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable pulling fuel out, go too lean and then you have a big ole mess on your hands. The object would be to run the octane and use the meth to cool the charge in the intake to gain the horsepower from this effect, this is my next goal for my car.
Jerryl
Tall Unvaccinated Chinese Guy
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2004
X2
X2
I "think" the alky does a few things;
1- Alky spray raises the net octane of (say 93), allowing more boost and timing.
2 - Alky reduces intake temps, allowing more boost, and timing.
3 - Alky reduces intake temps, which increases density, which increases O2 content of the charge.
4 - Alky charge decreases lag because of the increased exhaust energy.
I am unsure if the heat alone can separate the H and O molecules of water, but I very much doubt it will.
It would take an incredible amount of energy, and the water itself, will absorb some of the heat energy, so that will reduce temps, and decrease detonation tendency.
The Alky on the other hand, is a fuel, so the Oxygen will be used up during the burning process.
I belief that if you pulled fuel and have enough alky, I do not see any good explanation that supports "going slower".
If I am oncorrect, I would really like to know .......... in the quest for increased performance.
Again, I caution you, I am no expert and have not run the numbers that some of you have run, BUT, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last week. :biggrin:
Just trying to learn ………..
Yeah. Thats what im doing. It takes a lot of methanol. I lowered my target to 10.8:1 with Q16. I wouldnt be uncomfortble with 11.0:1 and C16. I have a dual nozzle cranked and 2 M10's. I am going to put in a pair of M15's in when i switch engines. I plan on easily running mid 130's on 93 and alky and low 140's on alky and Q16. With a 4 bolt on there it should go 145mph if i beat the balls off it. The alky becomes a large % of the total fuel consumption. Im contemplating running a 20% methanol mix in the tank too. Pump capacity will be the limiting factor.
well guys
From what i understand that there is more energy in the race gas than in the alky so why you you want to alky more alky and used less race fuel. Those nozzles can't flow 2.5 time more that was the injector are flowing. Also then there is the issue with/question is every cylinder getting the same amount of alky to help suppress the knock.
Race gas that run more timing and a tad leaner AFR than pump gas/alky. to a point running it a tad leaner makes more power.
Also from what jamie has posted that when she was spraying the meth/alky she didn't notice and temp reduction in the manifold. I guess that might be due to where the air temp sensor is located in regards to the nozzle location.
I'm gonna try and get a hold of Esinger's power logger file from the other day @ the track with low 50's air temp.
The very first day he had the air temp sensor reloacted to the intake and running the car hard @ 23 psi it showed the air temp to be in the low 200 degrees area and the outside temp was mid 60's that day but that was only one run so i will try and review his data and see.
From what i understand that there is more energy in the race gas than in the alky so why you you want to alky more alky and used less race fuel. Those nozzles can't flow 2.5 time more that was the injector are flowing. Also then there is the issue with/question is every cylinder getting the same amount of alky to help suppress the knock.
Race gas that run more timing and a tad leaner AFR than pump gas/alky. to a point running it a tad leaner makes more power.
Also from what jamie has posted that when she was spraying the meth/alky she didn't notice and temp reduction in the manifold. I guess that might be due to where the air temp sensor is located in regards to the nozzle location.
I'm gonna try and get a hold of Esinger's power logger file from the other day @ the track with low 50's air temp.
The very first day he had the air temp sensor reloacted to the intake and running the car hard @ 23 psi it showed the air temp to be in the low 200 degrees area and the outside temp was mid 60's that day but that was only one run so i will try and review his data and see.
Jerryl
Tall Unvaccinated Chinese Guy
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2004
I agree.
There is absolutely more energy in race gas per weight, so you need to spray A LOT of alky to get the same energy.
But, when you spray A LOT, you also get A LOT lower charge temps and A LOT lower combustion temps, with the benefit of increased exhaust energy.
Sure, Leaner is usually meaner as this effects BSFC, but “lean” is a relative term. Alcohol has a much wider range it will operate in.
I am sure you are aware that there are a lot of VERY expensive engines on Pro-Racing teams that run 100% methanol. So alcohol does work.
There was also a post a while back of the diminishing effects of "race gas and alky injection" in the alky section.
I don’t remember the thread, and can not explain the reasoning, but it made some sense to my simple mind at the time of my readings. :tongue:
I am still trying to understand why Jamie, Brent and Eric are all seeing right around 200F charge temps with somewhat different set-ups, boost levels / ambient temps.
THAT is a mystery.
I remember looking at Eric's log and did not know the ambient.
My yard stick says;
50F Ambient + (10F/lb boost X 23 PSI) = 280F Charge temps (expected)
If he is seeing 200F, that is a 30% temp drop!
I agree.
There is absolutely more energy in race gas per weight, so you need to spray A LOT of alky to get the same energy.
But, when you spray A LOT, you also get A LOT lower charge temps and A LOT lower combustion temps, with the benefit of increased exhaust energy.
Sure, Leaner is usually meaner as this effects BSFC, but “lean” is a relative term. Alcohol has a much wider range it will operate in.
I am sure you are aware that there are a lot of VERY expensive engines on Pro-Racing teams that run 100% methanol. So alcohol does work.
There was also a post a while back of the diminishing effects of "race gas and alky injection" in the alky section.
I don’t remember the thread, and can not explain the reasoning, but it made some sense to my simple mind at the time of my readings. :tongue:
I am still trying to understand why Jamie, Brent and Eric are all seeing right around 200F charge temps with somewhat different set-ups, boost levels / ambient temps.
THAT is a mystery.
I remember looking at Eric's log and did not know the ambient.
My yard stick says;
50F Ambient + (10F/lb boost X 23 PSI) = 280F Charge temps (expected)
If he is seeing 200F, that is a 30% temp drop!
I know that there is alot of race engines out there that run straight meth. but you also got to know that they are consuming about 2.3 times the amount of meth compared to a gas engine. so the thing is i don't think they alky kits that are out there on the market can really flow the amount of alky thats truely needed to make the same amount of power with race gas.
Also you mentioned that there is several people logging about the same air temp on diffrent cars and one of those that was mentioned there stated that they were not using alky as a cooling meduim and still seeing hte same air temps as the other 2 that was using alky so what going on here is the alky really cooling down the intake charge? so is eric really seeing a change in the air temp. Teh only real way to know is use the datalogs from when the alky was used and what the outside air temp was and then used pure race gas and then do a datalogs with the same boost level with the alky turned off and see the difference in the temps.
I would like to see the datalogs from all of them and find out for sure when the meth/alky was used and who was not using it as a comparsion.
I don't know a whole lot myself and i try and learn something new everyday guys. so please forgive me if i post some misinformation. But i did drive by a holiday inn express today
So having the AIT in the intake manifold won't cause you to have a false reading due to heatsoak??? I put mine in the cold side of my IC piping just for this reason. I don't think that it is a good idea to put an ait sensor in the intake manifold myself. What do I know my car doesn't even run right, right now, lol.
dee
dee
when using a speed density ecm you must have the IAT sensor located in the manifold. This is due to the air density changes when there is a temp change and the ecm needs to know this for a fueling change.
On MAF cars the iat don't really do anything chause the maf has a compensation built into the maf calibration itself. This is why i dunno they put a iat on the 86-87 cars. If one would look at the stock 86-87 chips the IAT temp correction tables are set at zero. it there but it really serves no purpose.
What I see when looking at my logs is a gradual increase and decrease in the intake temperatures. I was kind of expecting something a little more erratic, because I'm not gradually increasing boost when at the track. From what I understand the turbo should heat the air in the intake immediately and I would have expected the temperatures to jump when a go from say 5 pounds of boost to 22. So what I think I'm seeing is the intake slowly being heated up and down.
I actually monitor the temperature in the intake not sure if this is what you're calling the manifold or not? We were told that if we wanted to have the correct temperature to tune we needed to monitor the intake temperature. This made a huge difference when we tuned the car and it actually ran a lot better and had more accurate readings. Originally we were only monitoring the air temp in the cold air pipe but then we used to have a Maf sensor too. My temperature has only gone down 3 degrees from the standard 235 in the intake, with that being said yes that means there is cooling but I think our biggest limitation on this right now is the old smc set up, the pump isn't pushing the pressure like a Razor set up. I think this may net better results for those using alky. Also, we spray in the air intake pipe and then have 3 other nozzles set up as Lee had them set just below the turbo and into each runner. We run this as a two stage system using the main one below the turbo to launch and the other two kick on at 18-20#;s of boost hoping for the cooling effect. But again I think the slower pump speed is our limiting factor. This is why I think switching to E85 might be of a benefit, because it's alcohol based and would be a cooling effect all the time. I know that means tuning a bit differently but I'm thinking this has it's benefits and the cooler the charge the more horse power you can make. I'm not saying a 100% there is no cooling effect but when you run a pump pushing the PSI that Razor's does verses a pump that can barely get out of it's own way I think you don't get the same benefit. Make sense? Yes we have considered Razor's kit especially after talking to him and that is still an option. I also feel more comfortable running the 110 octane because I know I'm covered on the street and we can get it but E85 is very easy to obtain averages around 106 octane and would have a full time cooling effect. The 10 second pass was not using alcohol again but the air temp outdoors only being 54 degrees with no relative humidity seems to be where my car peaks. Now if I could bottle this weather we all could see how that would effect our set ups.
Jerryl
Tall Unvaccinated Chinese Guy
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2004
I know that there is alot of race engines out there that run straight meth. but you also got to know that they are consuming about 2.3 times the amount of meth compared to a gas engine. so the thing is i don't think they alky kits that are out there on the market can really flow the amount of alky thats truely needed to make the same amount of power with race gas.
Also you mentioned that there is several people logging about the same air temp on diffrent cars and one of those that was mentioned there stated that they were not using alky as a cooling meduim and still seeing hte same air temps as the other 2 that was using alky so what going on here is the alky really cooling down the intake charge? so is eric really seeing a change in the air temp. Teh only real way to know is use the datalogs from when the alky was used and what the outside air temp was and then used pure race gas and then do a datalogs with the same boost level with the alky turned off and see the difference in the temps.
I would like to see the datalogs from all of them and find out for sure when the meth/alky was used and who was not using it as a comparsion.
I don't know a whole lot myself and i try and learn something new everyday guys. so please forgive me if i post some misinformation. But i did drive by a holiday inn express today
Yeah, I saw you drive by .......... LOL!!! :biggrin:
In all seriousness;
Yeah we are only suplimenting the meth, up to XX%, and, it is almost impossible to run one of these cars off the system alone at the preferred performance levels.
Having said that ....... If you increased the PAC output, you'd be surprised how much fuel you would have to pull.
That system is VERY powerfull and will drop the engine on it's face, which is a good thing to a point.
Considering you are only "suplimenting" the fuelAs far as IAT's; Logging with race gas alone, and than with the alky spraying is the way to go. Very few will share that kind of data.
I would like to see that since I have never run race gas, but, at 12-15PSI on 93 octane only, on a 75-85 degree day, I did see around the 230 mark, so, the calculations hold true.
I don't think the MAF has build in temp compensation.
And, if it does, the temp range for compensation is too wide in the original code. I thought is was like "below 30F - 100" ambient.
The MAF cars run on the MAF, and with SD the IAT is critical to get fueling correct.
Jerryl
Tall Unvaccinated Chinese Guy
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2004
Honestly, I would feel MUCH safer with 110 as well, but with 93 I am forced to leave the boost low ....... And with a DD, race gas is not an option.
Heck the car goes through 1-2 tanks of 93/week.
I have never run race gas in fear of taking out my Bosh WB, plus I just want to see how far 93+Alky can go on a HA.
Just a personal goal is all, not better or anything like that.
E-85 is available, but not plentyfull here in the city of "Oil and Gas".
The lead can hurt a bosch but in my application so can the heat. I always had great luck with the Denso oxygen sensor and it tolerance of race fuel. Race fuel for us is only 8 miles away and the E 85 is carried at chain through out the area. We're lucky in that sense.
Well, believe it or not I saw Julio this weekend and he convinced me to buy a M3 nozzle, T and line to install on my intake pipe (Pre-Turbo). He thought I'd atleast be able get 1 more psi in boost with that setup.
Yeah, I saw you drive by .......... LOL!!! :biggrin:
In all seriousness;
Yeah we are only suplimenting the meth, up to XX%, and, it is almost impossible to run one of these cars off the system alone at the preferred performance levels.
Having said that ....... If you increased the PAC output, you'd be surprised how much fuel you would have to pull.
That system is VERY powerfull and will drop the engine on it's face, which is a good thing to a point.
As far as IAT's; Logging with race gas alone, and than with the alky spraying is the way to go. Very few will share that kind of data.
I would like to see that since I have never run race gas, but, at 12-15PSI on 93 octane only, on a 75-85 degree day, I did see around the 230 mark, so, the calculations hold true. QUOTE]
well by doing the math to figure the amount of heat should be in the air after it's been compressed is ok to do but there is always one factor there that is really hard to compensate for is the amount of humidty that's in the air. the math is a ball park figure to be close but it's not the correct # IMO.
You shouldn't have to worry about race gas killing your WB thats what they were intended for. but maybe i can get with eric to see if i can borrow his car as a test mule to get some real hard data that i can share with you guys . I'm not like some folks and hord the info for my own personal gains. you can ask eric that!
MULE!!
Why it's a fine black race horse Yeah, Pat does share his findings with everyone. Depending on the person, they'll either agree with him or fight him on it.
Yeah, I saw you drive by .......... LOL!!! :biggrin:
In all seriousness;
Yeah we are only suplimenting the meth, up to XX%, and, it is almost impossible to run one of these cars off the system alone at the preferred performance levels.
Having said that ....... If you increased the PAC output, you'd be surprised how much fuel you would have to pull.
That system is VERY powerfull and will drop the engine on it's face, which is a good thing to a point.
As far as IAT's; Logging with race gas alone, and than with the alky spraying is the way to go. Very few will share that kind of data.
I would like to see that since I have never run race gas, but, at 12-15PSI on 93 octane only, on a 75-85 degree day, I did see around the 230 mark, so, the calculations hold true. QUOTE]
well by doing the math to figure the amount of heat should be in the air after it's been compressed is ok to do but there is always one factor there that is really hard to compensate for is the amount of humidty that's in the air. the math is a ball park figure to be close but it's not the correct # IMO.
You shouldn't have to worry about race gas killing your WB thats what they were intended for. but maybe i can get with eric to see if i can borrow his car as a test mule to get some real hard data that i can share with you guys . I'm not like some folks and hord the info for my own personal gains. you can ask eric that!
Im supplementing about 12-13% myself. The more the better. Just keep dropping the target a/f and increase the methanol flow. It might be wise to monitor and data log pump output pressure as you increase the nozzle size. Razor said it should be over 150 psi on his kits.
