Girdle
- Thread starter Razor
- Start date
Yes, but if you get an off-center you can use all your existing internals, heads and intake, no? You don't "have" to run a BGC, right? If you can run stock heads, is the issue the dimensions on the intake?
I guess I'm confused because I thought that was the difference between on and off center stage blocks. Sorry for the confusion but I thought other dudes told me they ran the same crank, rods, heads, etc.
Where I think people get expensive on stage blocks is things like mods to the oiling system (dry sump) and the philosophy of running a stage block with a stock crank. Most people say "why bother", you might as well spend the $ on a steel crank.
Moot point to me because I'm done dumping money into that TTA money pit
I guess I'm confused because I thought that was the difference between on and off center stage blocks. Sorry for the confusion but I thought other dudes told me they ran the same crank, rods, heads, etc.
Where I think people get expensive on stage blocks is things like mods to the oiling system (dry sump) and the philosophy of running a stage block with a stock crank. Most people say "why bother", you might as well spend the $ on a steel crank.
Moot point to me because I'm done dumping money into that TTA money pit
Thanks Jason.I wasnt aware that the cylinder heads would intechange.
Mark b,yes off center uses factory parts(intake,heads,crank,rods,etc)
Ive got over 3 times the $$$ in my stock block than Jason has in his StageII stuff
And the last 2 off center Stage blocks I saw went for $2k,including the virgin block that njturbo had.
Mark b,yes off center uses factory parts(intake,heads,crank,rods,etc)
Ive got over 3 times the $$$ in my stock block than Jason has in his StageII stuff
And the last 2 off center Stage blocks I saw went for $2k,including the virgin block that njturbo had.
One thing when mentioning prices.. its like saying I can pickup a used 70K mile TTA for 4000 bucks. Yes they exist.. chances of getting one.. slim. Or finding a GN in a junkyard with drivetrain.. another fat chance.
What you can get stuff for, and what stuff goes for typically.. two different realms.
A lot of the machine work is not cut and dry. Hell its hard enough to find competent machine shops for a stocker.. let alone stage motors.
What you can get stuff for, and what stuff goes for typically.. two different realms.
A lot of the machine work is not cut and dry. Hell its hard enough to find competent machine shops for a stocker.. let alone stage motors.
I'm not trying to take the thread another direction. Razor has passed on that girdles work in TTA's and I'm one of the people who considers that good news.
Now you dont have to go too far back to be at a time when good cranks where $1800 to $2500 AND you had to wait for it, some times it took months to get your $2500 crank. Now more and more guys are going faster, and with caps and girdles being fairly reasonable, and the availability of the nicely priced Eagle crank, some guys are building some pretty stout 109 motors. Guys where going over budget back when main studs, J&E pistons, roller cam, and ported iron heads was considered a high dollar build up. The list of goodies has gone way up and some people are dumping ALOT of money into 109 motors. My good buddy Roger has less money in his stage motor than he had in his 109 build up.
I have 3 other freinds with stage projects in the works, plus I know a few guys from going to bowling green every year who are messing with some stage stuff. We all have way less money in the set up than what people think is "the going rate".
If your confused about what parts are different between on and off center then carefully reread my above post. If you run stock style heads (stock, GN-1, M&A, ect.) and an ON CENTER stage block then you need a BGC on center intake OR a modified stock intake (I was offered one for $350 awhile back) and you will need a set of on center rods that will fit the crank your planning on running. If your going to run a stock or a Eagle crank then you would need a set of on center narrow journal rods. The last thing is the oiling system but that was taken care of with the duttweiller oiling system. Its like $500, weld a pick up to your oil pan (you need a 14 bolt pan and you can get one really cheap)and away you go. ALL the other parts interchange. Cams, heads, crankshafts, exh manifolds, pistons, ect ect.
One last thing. To keep from getting confused about stage motors don't talk to some dingaling with a big wallet who payed to have one built. They dont even know what they got. You got to talk to the guys who build them themselfs. Theres a couple of guys out there that are nice enough to help answere your questions.
Jason
Now you dont have to go too far back to be at a time when good cranks where $1800 to $2500 AND you had to wait for it, some times it took months to get your $2500 crank. Now more and more guys are going faster, and with caps and girdles being fairly reasonable, and the availability of the nicely priced Eagle crank, some guys are building some pretty stout 109 motors. Guys where going over budget back when main studs, J&E pistons, roller cam, and ported iron heads was considered a high dollar build up. The list of goodies has gone way up and some people are dumping ALOT of money into 109 motors. My good buddy Roger has less money in his stage motor than he had in his 109 build up.
I have 3 other freinds with stage projects in the works, plus I know a few guys from going to bowling green every year who are messing with some stage stuff. We all have way less money in the set up than what people think is "the going rate".
If your confused about what parts are different between on and off center then carefully reread my above post. If you run stock style heads (stock, GN-1, M&A, ect.) and an ON CENTER stage block then you need a BGC on center intake OR a modified stock intake (I was offered one for $350 awhile back) and you will need a set of on center rods that will fit the crank your planning on running. If your going to run a stock or a Eagle crank then you would need a set of on center narrow journal rods. The last thing is the oiling system but that was taken care of with the duttweiller oiling system. Its like $500, weld a pick up to your oil pan (you need a 14 bolt pan and you can get one really cheap)and away you go. ALL the other parts interchange. Cams, heads, crankshafts, exh manifolds, pistons, ect ect.
One last thing. To keep from getting confused about stage motors don't talk to some dingaling with a big wallet who payed to have one built. They dont even know what they got. You got to talk to the guys who build them themselfs. Theres a couple of guys out there that are nice enough to help answere your questions.
Jason
I don't think anyone's trying to hassle you Jason. I was just doing simple math and I never considered an on-center block for all the reasons you cited. On-center is a different game.
So, in my feeble mind:
Off-center block + machining = $2K-3K (+)
Stock block (existing) + machining ($500) + girdle ($400) = $900
Ballpark numbers but I can't see how you can do any stage block for close to the cost of a girdle.
That's all I was saying..... no big deal. There was a stage block sitting on the floor at Cottons when I did my motor. Sometimes I wish I still would have done it.
So, in my feeble mind:
Off-center block + machining = $2K-3K (+)
Stock block (existing) + machining ($500) + girdle ($400) = $900
Ballpark numbers but I can't see how you can do any stage block for close to the cost of a girdle.
That's all I was saying..... no big deal. There was a stage block sitting on the floor at Cottons when I did my motor. Sometimes I wish I still would have done it.
trading t/a
I'm Angry!!!!!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2001
Even with a girdle you have to consider the stress on the lower end. Spreading that stress over the rails definately helps, but would it be only a matter of time before the webbing went bye bye? I know the TSM guys are running amazing times, but how frequent are the tear downs/ rebuilds? I don't wanna refresh the drivetrain every year.
I like the idea of the off center stage motor with good rods and a steel crank with fully ported stock induction components. The bottom end should take all the abuse the top end could support.
The production tolerances of stage motors is where the money is. How many standard 109's have lifter bore alignment probs, then there is the main webbing being thinner. I guess it's up to the individual doing the building.
What do i know my car has been down a year!
I like the idea of the off center stage motor with good rods and a steel crank with fully ported stock induction components. The bottom end should take all the abuse the top end could support.
The production tolerances of stage motors is where the money is. How many standard 109's have lifter bore alignment probs, then there is the main webbing being thinner. I guess it's up to the individual doing the building.
What do i know my car has been down a year!
I have to agree with this... the webbing on the 109 blocks is so thin that I was concerned the steel caps and ARP studs would simply move the failure point directly to the webbing. I pictured my crank laying on the ground with the ARP bolts firmly in the rods and the studs into what was left of the webbing!
I also shared the same concern about the TSM people. I know those guys minimally tear down every year which is unrealistic for us common folk
Whatever that break-point line is, low 11's or high 10's... once you cross it there seem to be only 2 options: build for durability with a stage block or strengthen the stock 109 and rebuild periodically and/or take your chances.
I like Dan McDonald's advice: make some basic mods, go high 11's, have fun and don't worry!
I also shared the same concern about the TSM people. I know those guys minimally tear down every year which is unrealistic for us common folk
Whatever that break-point line is, low 11's or high 10's... once you cross it there seem to be only 2 options: build for durability with a stage block or strengthen the stock 109 and rebuild periodically and/or take your chances.
I like Dan McDonald's advice: make some basic mods, go high 11's, have fun and don't worry!
Whenever You walk under the magic 11s, even if You have a stage block or a 109, I still think it would be adviced to check it every year. Especially if it see lots of passes during the year.
I´m going with caps/studs on mine, and it´s going to the shop thursday evening. These guys know what they´re doing, so I´m going to give them (almost) free hands to beef it up.
I´m going with caps/studs on mine, and it´s going to the shop thursday evening. These guys know what they´re doing, so I´m going to give them (almost) free hands to beef it up.
You have to clarify "check it".
The hard-core people tear down the motor - pull the crank, pistons, rods, etc and check clearances, put in new bearings, do light honing on the bores, etc.
So here's the deal: you can't do much with the bearings once you go to a girdle. You have to remove the girdle and hence the clearance questions. So if you really mean "check it", realistically that means pulling the motor every year. I don't think most daily drivers want to get involved in that. I sure don't!
The hard-core people tear down the motor - pull the crank, pistons, rods, etc and check clearances, put in new bearings, do light honing on the bores, etc.
So here's the deal: you can't do much with the bearings once you go to a girdle. You have to remove the girdle and hence the clearance questions. So if you really mean "check it", realistically that means pulling the motor every year. I don't think most daily drivers want to get involved in that. I sure don't!
Well I sure don´t see a stage block or a girdled engine as a daily driver engine. That sounds way to overkill if Your almost only use it for transporting Your but to work and maybe go to the track twice a year.
I´m not going to use mine as a daily driver, but it´s not going to be a trailer queen either.
I´m not going to use mine as a daily driver, but it´s not going to be a trailer queen either.
Razor you need to get ahold of DRBOOST. He has a pump gas dyno pull with your alky kit on there and he did some where around 550 hp at the rear tires with that thing. I would say he is out of my league now. But hey we all know he is still a puss!
Jason
i always get the same response from two guys whos cars DONT RUN!!
Jason, i drive my car everyday, it aint no trailer queen. overdrive, no locker, no worrying about ic water temps. 100% pure whoopass.
while your worrying about the icebags for the ic, you'll be getting teabagged by the PEOPLE's CHAMPION.
Prasad,
I'm giving you a waiver this time....there has to be some advantage to being my cousin..
P.S. for the last time....you have 5 more lbs. to go before you are plural...prasad not prasads.
hugs and kisses,
surej
Jason, i drive my car everyday, it aint no trailer queen. overdrive, no locker, no worrying about ic water temps. 100% pure whoopass.
while your worrying about the icebags for the ic, you'll be getting teabagged by the PEOPLE's CHAMPION.
Prasad,
I'm giving you a waiver this time....there has to be some advantage to being my cousin..
P.S. for the last time....you have 5 more lbs. to go before you are plural...prasad not prasads.
hugs and kisses,
surej
