GNX #298 on Ebay: PA reconstructed title

[turbojimmy]

Actually... If it has an "R" (reconstructed) title, I think the state of PA will issue a new vin number, so there may not be the issue of vin swapping at hand. I believe it also states something to the effect that if more than XX% of the original car is not rebuilt, an "R" title is required.

I could be wrong, but that info 'sorta sticks in my head.

I'm too lazy to read all of the pages, but PA does not issue a new VIN. They issue an "R" title with the original VIN. Swapping tags or other parts with the VIN stamped on them to another frame is illegal. There is absolutely no way that guy reconstructed ("R" title = "reconstructed" not "VIN swapped") the original vehicle which makes what he did illegal. I didn't look at the auction, but if he's selling it with the VIN from the non-GNX car then that's fine. If he's selling it with the GNX VIN then that's illegal.

All of my salvage cars come from PA. The process seems to be pretty loose - 4 pics, tread depth readings and brake lining readings are all that is required to get a title. There is no physical inspection of the vehicle in its wrecked state nor once it's reconstructed (like in NJ and NY, for example). You could send 4 pics of a similar vehicle and they'd never know. They do require some sort of receipts for the work that was done.

In NJ they take the finished product into a garage, close the door and tell you to wait an hour. They thoroughly inspect the car to make sure the VINs match and that you didn't use stolen parts. You have to have a receipt for every new part and the new parts have to match the damage in the 'before' pics.

Jim

 

[roadrunner88]

In NJ they take the finished product into a garage, close the door and tell you to wait an hour. They thoroughly inspect the car to make sure the VINs match and that you didn't use stolen parts. You have to have a receipt for every new part and the new parts have to match the damage in the 'before' pics.

Jim

He certainly did NOT do that...
He swapped the VIN, and showed pictures to prove it...

 

[stizkidz]

i know for a fact the trans is not the orig GNX and the car has a PA Salvage Title

just wanted to clear something up. i was under the impression that GNX's had the same tranny as GN's, the 200-4R BRF. can anyone confirm this info?

 

[Bigglezworth]

Same tranny with some modifications for shifting.

 

[turbojimmy]

Bidding ended at $25,200. Kind of confirms the salvage title = 50% retail value theory. Legal/ethical questions aside, would it be worth $25k to have a 'real' GNX? What's not real about it? (playing devil's advocate, that's all....).

I also wanted to clear up my earlier post. It is legal to swap bodies and body parts onto other frames, just not VIN tags from body-to-body. Neither the body nor frame on that car were salvagable. That car should not have a reconstructed title.

Jim

 

[GNX 233 485]

Salvage value

Bidding ended at $25,200. Kind of confirms the salvage title = 50% retail value theory. Legal/ethical questions aside, would it be worth $25k to have a 'real' GNX? What's not real about it? (playing devil's advocate, that's all....).

I also wanted to clear up my earlier post. It is legal to swap bodies and body parts onto other frames, just not VIN tags from body-to-body. Neither the body nor frame on that car were salvagable. That car should not have a reconstructed title.

Jim

Salvage title value does not equal 50% of retail. The reason this car only did 25,200 is because everyone knew that it was a reconstructed total loss. If it was in a regular collision and fixed properly but had a salvage title, it would be worth just the same as a regular GNX. You dont drive the title, you drive the car.

 

[turbojimmy]

Salvage title value does not equal 50% of retail. The reason this car only did 25,200 is because everyone knew that it was a reconstructed total loss. If it was in a regular collision and fixed properly but had a salvage title, it would be worth just the same as a regular GNX. You dont drive the title, you drive the car.

You're sort of contradicting yourself. The reason the car only did 25,500 is because everyone knew it was a reconstructed total loss. That was my point. 50% might be an exaggeration, but there's no way a salvage GNX would be worth anywhere near full retail. I've had a lot of them (my GN is a reconstructed total, too) and use 50% of retail as my threshold for my max investment in them.

Jim

 

[GNX 233 485]

Salvage title value

50% might be an exaggeration, but there's no way a salvage GNX would be worth anywhere near full retail. I've had a lot of them (my GN is a reconstructed total, too) and use 50% of retail as my threshold for my max investment in them.

Jim

What about a theft recovery with a salvage brand on the title. Just stolen and recovered with no damage, just has a salvage brand because the car was missing more than 30 days and the insurance company paid out on it. Why is that car not worth the same, there is nothing different about it. I understand that a hard hit car that was repaired and titled is not worth the same, but there are cars with the salvage brand that are worht the same as retail.

 

[Bigglezworth]

What about a theft recovery with a salvage brand on the title. Just stolen and recovered with no damage, just has a salvage brand because the car was missing more than 30 days and the insurance company paid out on it. Why is that car not worth the same, there is nothing different about it. I understand that a hard hit car that was repaired and titled is not worth the same, but there are cars with the salvage brand that are worht the same as retail.

I had one of my other cars stolen and written off by the insurance company because of theft. I received the car back a number of weeks later after working a buy-out for recovery cost after damage to interior steering column, locks, missing stereo, and burnt out clutch/tires. Joyriding. I contacted my local department of transportation and was able to reregister it again without salvage title after I was able to prove it was written off for "non-impact reasons".

 

[GNXcess]

No Way "Salvage" = "Normal Retail" for GNX Especially

Sorry but I have to disagree strongly. Since the advent of Carfax and similar services on 1982 and newer vehicles, provenance/history is easy to check and very routine-- especially on higher dollar cars.

I believe that any owner or prospective owner would agree that a "salvage" or "rebuilt" history GNX does, in fact, adversely affect retail value-- and significantly. I'll grant you maybe more so for these cars versus a driver GN, but still no way I'll shell out the same coin for a GNX with ANY "history."

Yes, people do drive the car, not the title. But tell that to the guy about to spend $70 to $90K for a GNX and history becomes a big issue simply because it is more of an investment and less of a driver. Heck, even repaints or high number of previous owners have a negative effect on price. And we've all seen situations where the question of mileage hurts the sale-- a fat-fingered teenager at a Smog center puts in 150,000 instead of 15,000 and fire alarm bells go off when a Carfax is run and everyone accuses the seller of fraud. And yet none of these situations is as bad as an adverse event on the title. So don't try to sell me that "Salvage" = "Normal Retail" 'cause I ain't buyin'. :biggrin:

One last thought. A car's history can be "spun" so that a "bad wreck" becomes a "minor fender bender" somewhere down the line. And maybe only the column was damaged, but who wants to take that chance at these prices? How do you know for sure the EXTENT of the writeoff?

Even more reason that buyers will, in fact, assume the worst (whether justified or not) when there is ANY black mark on the title history. And that directly affects sale price.

My two cents...
Doug

 

[SS_Sean]

Did anyone contact the state police? This is fraud, plain and simple. There are several crimes going here. The fraud on ebay, and the vin swap itself.

 

[yullose]

Did anyone contact the state police? This is fraud, plain and simple. There are several crimes going here. The fraud on ebay, and the vin swap itself.

I posted the info, hoping someone would take my lead and follow through with it...
I'm not getting involved anymore than that. I made the initial phonecall the other night to inquire about the legality of what it appears was done.
The trooper was already off duty so I wrote down his name and contact info.
I already have the cost of a long-distance phone call invested... No intention of going any further than that myself.

 

[GNRick]

Does anybody know the high bidder? Or more importantly, does anybody know what the hell the high bidder was thinking when he bid on the car?

 

[Bigglezworth]

Does anybody know the high bidder? Or more importantly, does anybody know what the hell the high bidder was thinking when he bid on the car?

I would hesitate to guess that the high bidder was thinking that his bid was an extremely good price for a very clean looking GN with OEM GNX parts that are quite pricey to obtain - IF you can obtain them - for a GNX clone/replica.

 

[TWISTER]

I would hesitate to guess that the high bidder was thinking that his bid was an extremely good price for a very clean looking GN with OEM GNX parts that are quite pricey to obtain - IF you can obtain them - for a GNX clone/replica.

I was thinking the same thing but when it all comes down they bought an illegal car and it may be a BIG loss to him if its taken from him, I dont know what the law is but thats alot of $$ to risk if it comes up to legal action. Just my opinion.

 

[Bigglezworth]

I was thinking the same thing but when it all comes down they bought an illegal car and it may be a BIG loss to him if its taken from him, I dont know what the law is but thats alot of $$ to risk if it comes up to legal action. Just my opinion.

You are smack dab on. Sometimes "Thinking that a bid is too good of a price" is just that - too good. Will only matter if the buyer doesn't do his research on the legal nature that I'm certain more than a few members reading this thread emailed him about with concern.

 

[Pablo]

I was thinking the same thing but when it all comes down they bought an illegal car and it may be a BIG loss to him if its taken from him, I dont know what the law is but thats alot of $$ to risk if it comes up to legal action. Just my opinion.

Do you think the police honestly care? Seriously? They'll probably care about as much as if a GNX was stolen "Whats a gnx?"

Do you know how many cars change hands on these boards and on ebay that arent "Legal"?

Its a federal offense to tamper with ANY emissions equipment, whether or not your state has emissions testing or not. Its also a federal offense to run anything other than what you get at the gas pump at a regular gas station. Etc etc etc
How many turbobuicks do you think are legal?

Whoever bought it got a very clean GN, and really if you think about it, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck... is it not a duck? Theres no soul to a chassis that defines its existence. Its just a bunch of metal parts.

At what point does a salvaged GNX stop being a GNX? When more than 50% of the parts are replaced? or is it only if the frame is replaced? These are questions that are going to have different answers from person to person.

Im sure there is a legal grey area aswell. What constitutes an illegal vin swap? Before you go nailing this dude to a cross you oughta check out what the actual legalese is concerning this situation. There are plenty of situations where cars have their frames replaced, or large portions of the body. Are they then no longer the original car? I guess basically what I am asking is to what components or % of parts is that vin number married to? Theres gotta be a cut and dry formula otherwise any lawyer is going to tear any challenge to it apart.


What it comes down to is perception. A car is only what it is percieved to be, and that is going to vary from person to person. The legal stuff IMHO is neither here nor there... there are enough laws on the books to criminalize your very existence if you want to read them to the letter.

anyway thats just my 2 cents, maybe a differing opinion than most. I don't intend to flame anyone and I respect everyone elses POV.

 

[Bigglezworth]

I like your post. Well put.

 

[garyk1970]

if he was truthfull and called his car a clone from the start, all this wouldnt be this bad.a true gnx was built by asc and no one else.

im like 99% everyone out there,all these cars are in the statoshere in price,and they have become investments,at these prices i want the best example i can buy,not a destroyed car thats been made out of two cars that were destined to the parts yard.i read in this thread that he took a prestine gn and added parts to come up with this car,i believe he took a daily driver gn or worse and built the car in question(since hes tied to a paint shop).twenty plus thousand dollars is enough to pay off my house,that much money should be enough to buy a car that has been take care of and pampered all its life(for now anyways,the $$ is going up)just my 2 cents.....

 

[TURBOTERRORV6]

Don't go near this car. It is nothing more than a Regal frame with GNX parts and, worse yet, of questionable legality because of the VIN tag swap. Notice how the pictures skip over the frame and complete shell changeout. Please take a look at original pictures from the dealer here:

http://amsleysvw.com/GNX.php

If you must have one, do yourself a big favor and buy/build a clone (that someone didn't almost die in...)

Good luck,
Doug

you can see on one the pics where someone most likely was killed in the horrific event. You can clearly see the white sheet pinned against the sunvisor with blood :frown: