I have not owned the ls1 cars but have owned fast gms and a viper. I have a stage buick and have had more fun with it then any of the other cars. Not to rain on anyones parade but if you spend 40k on a buick and dont see anything close to 10s you need to re-evaluate your spending. I go to the track often and see very few 9, 10 or 11 sec ls1s. I enjoy driving to the track , run a few 10.0s and when I drive home I pass many trailered cars I just outran at the track. I dont believe you will run into the 11s cheaper or with less work then you can with the turbo regals. If someone is doing this I would like to hear their formula to run 11s on 2k or so? One more thing about the handling issue. Usually the only ones who talk up handling are usually ones with little power to accelerate with. In the 40 years of perf. car driving and 5 years with the viper I have never been challanged to a road race. Its is always a contest of acceleration.
Grand National or LS1 F-Body???
- Thread starter GNJesse
- Start date
RKHiPerformance
Turbocharged Sex Cylinder
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2003
There's some really good points made in this thread, but from reading your initial post it seems as if the T/A is what you've got your heart set on. The reality is that you only live once, and if at this point the T/A is what makes you sweaty then you should go for it.
Will you regret selling the GN at some point? Absolutely, but that's the reality of this hobby. As much as we'd like to, we can't keep 'em all.
Good luck!
Will you regret selling the GN at some point? Absolutely, but that's the reality of this hobby. As much as we'd like to, we can't keep 'em all.
Good luck!
rtviper said:
Well you obviously know d!ck about LS1's man. 1st, 11's for $2K? Been done a million times. All it takes is drag radials, spray, a couple bolt ons, and you're there. A stall makes a huge difference and there are guys running 11's N/A with just bolt ons. There are cam only cars in the 10's N/A, and in the 9's on the bottle. And they do it on pump gas, BTW. I won't even mention the turbo LS1's, which although pricey, make insane power. I'm fighting the urge to drop mine off at Speed Inc. and let 'em have at it. 750-800 hp on pump gas sure sounds nice. And for probably half what a stage motor would run. Not to mention its literally as easy as calling and making an appointment. No parts chasing, using 20 year old blocks with huge price tags, no BS. Thats what a booming aftermarket will do for you. Your buick sounds sweet, and is obviously no slouch, but there are true street driven 9 second pump gas LS1's roaming the streets now with more to come. Anyone else notice the new LS blocks the aftermarket came out with? You're going to see some serious numbers now. W2W made what 1500 hp on a production block? Wonder what a dart block will take....
And to the guy who said buicks probably launch harder, okey dokey. My car yanks tires on motor and drag radials. Never left on the bottle but it should be fun. Regardless, any car can be made to 60' great, and likewise any car can be incorrectly setup too. My GN, despite having an awesome suspension and the best parts, could never hook. Making F bodies hook is much easier. You see more f bodies having wheel stand issues that anything. Maybe my GN was setup wrong, even though I had some well respected suspension gurus check it out.
Like the other guy said, its your car and if an f body trips your trigger go for it. I loved my GN but there was a definite ceiling as far as performance and I didn't like that idea. Sure, I could buy a stage motor but then it was going to have so much time and $$$ invested in it I would have been sweating bullets every time I dropped the hammer. No one wants to replace a $10,000 motor in their street car. But my LS1 turbo motor I'm looking at is like $3500 for the shortblock, $1200 for the heads, re-using my intake, and then you just have the turbo kit and supporting hardware. I can handle replacing a $3500 bottom end at any point in time with no sweat. A stage motor would be substantially more expensive.
Its all in what you want, do what makes you happy. Hell I even own mustangs from time to time! Don't tell anyone.......
I'm not terribly familiar with the costs associated with building fast LC2's, but I could make my mid 13-second car run 11's without sacrificing drivability for about $1k, just sticky tires ($300) and a 150 hp dry shot and the requisite plugs and tuning (maybe $700?). I'd have to fill the bottle, though. I'm running 13.3 with just an air intake and a cutout on street tires. It would be cooler to have the power on tap all the time, as opposed to filling a bottle, but LS1 superchargers, turbochargers, and heads/cam packages ain't cheap. Hope this helps.
Turbosam take a deep breath and untie the knot in your panties. No one said the v8 chev motor cant be made to run hard. My remark about cheap OR easier to run 11s still carries weight. Since the buick already has the power adder stock it is easier to run 11s IMO with the turbo buick. Adding nos to any car isnt just a 30 minute job. I will also repeat that at the track I see very few street ls1 in the 11s ,10s or 9s. They have plenty of cars at the track and when the buick crowd is there also their are more of them into the 10s then from 3 times the number of ls1 cars. Just my observation. Yes the chev v8 can power the cars into the 9s and even 8s n/a but it isnt cheap or much of a street car either. The most enjoyable compliments are from people who approach you at the track and ask is that really a 6?. The v8 is expected to run that fast. Popular mechanics had a race for all muscle cars and perf cars from the early 60s on. They had to be of stock configuration no power adders that were not on the car new. The winner was the Dodge Viper at 11.9 and second was the old buick T-Type at 12.52. All he did was run race gas and turn up the boost to 26lbs? Not bad?
Boosted 86 T
New Member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
Thats funny, im gettin ready to purchase a 99 Trans am with the LS1 because i loooove F-bodys almost as much as the turbo regals. I used to have a 96 camaro LT1 w/ a six speed and i sold it for my t type, and do not regret it. Id personally keep the GN from my expeirence.
Just because you don't see fast street LS1's at your track doesn't mean they aren't there. I see a ton of them there, whereas I am doing good to see one buick, which makes sense since there aren't as many out there.
As a couple have pointed out, its easy to go 11's in an LS1, just like a buick. If it takes you more than a few hours to install a dry shot on an LS1 its time to put up the tools and hire a pro, and I've seen guys take longer to change plugs on a TR or maybe find a vacuum leak or something like that like you see on 19+ year old cars. As far as your argument that 9 second LS1's aren't street cars, well how many 9 second street TR's are you seein' these days? Sure, they are out there, and I promise there are more single digit LS1's prowling the streets right now than buicks.
If I did a ton of weight reduction I'd be knockin' on the 9 second door myself, but it suits me better right now to leave it loaded. As it sits I run 11.40 on motor with pump gas and drag radials on a very rich tune. I am having it re-tuned soon and will pick up 1-2 tenths. Then I spray it.
You want to say its cheaper and easier to go 11's in a buick vs/ a LS1? Let me get this straight, you buy one stone stock TR and one stone stock LS1, and with a $2000 budget you build both cars. I challenge you to do it. Sure, on paper it possible. But lets factor in any stock TR will need a few hundred dollars just in upgrades and repairs just to start. Things like fuel pumps, old wiring and hoses, and old valve springs will need to be done first. Not to mention any buick in good enough shape to do this will cost alot more than a similarly equipped LS1 car. Tires and spray plus some minor bolt ons will get 11's in an LS1 and you're looking at maybe a day altogether to get it done. I've had times I spent that much time just looking for parts for my GN. And god forbid you need to hire out any of that work, good luck finding anyone close by to work on your TR, unless you're one of the lucky few who live close to one of the few remaining buick shops.
And besides, if you're serious about owning and driving a true 11 second street car but only have a budget of $2000 you might as well bank on 12's because while its possible most of us have alot more in our cars.
I'm not worked up, just realistic. Of course people are biased to whatever car they own, but I owned both together for a time and my opinion has been the same. No car will ever be as bad ass as my GN, no matter how fast or slow it is. That car was pure evil, and will be missed on a certain level. But I don't miss the headaches, and my bank account is thanking me too.
As a couple have pointed out, its easy to go 11's in an LS1, just like a buick. If it takes you more than a few hours to install a dry shot on an LS1 its time to put up the tools and hire a pro, and I've seen guys take longer to change plugs on a TR or maybe find a vacuum leak or something like that like you see on 19+ year old cars. As far as your argument that 9 second LS1's aren't street cars, well how many 9 second street TR's are you seein' these days? Sure, they are out there, and I promise there are more single digit LS1's prowling the streets right now than buicks.
If I did a ton of weight reduction I'd be knockin' on the 9 second door myself, but it suits me better right now to leave it loaded. As it sits I run 11.40 on motor with pump gas and drag radials on a very rich tune. I am having it re-tuned soon and will pick up 1-2 tenths. Then I spray it.
You want to say its cheaper and easier to go 11's in a buick vs/ a LS1? Let me get this straight, you buy one stone stock TR and one stone stock LS1, and with a $2000 budget you build both cars. I challenge you to do it. Sure, on paper it possible. But lets factor in any stock TR will need a few hundred dollars just in upgrades and repairs just to start. Things like fuel pumps, old wiring and hoses, and old valve springs will need to be done first. Not to mention any buick in good enough shape to do this will cost alot more than a similarly equipped LS1 car. Tires and spray plus some minor bolt ons will get 11's in an LS1 and you're looking at maybe a day altogether to get it done. I've had times I spent that much time just looking for parts for my GN. And god forbid you need to hire out any of that work, good luck finding anyone close by to work on your TR, unless you're one of the lucky few who live close to one of the few remaining buick shops.
And besides, if you're serious about owning and driving a true 11 second street car but only have a budget of $2000 you might as well bank on 12's because while its possible most of us have alot more in our cars.
I'm not worked up, just realistic. Of course people are biased to whatever car they own, but I owned both together for a time and my opinion has been the same. No car will ever be as bad ass as my GN, no matter how fast or slow it is. That car was pure evil, and will be missed on a certain level. But I don't miss the headaches, and my bank account is thanking me too.
As a guy who builds both turbo Regals and LS1's for others(as well as just about anything that'll pay a buck or two. lol) and being and owner of a TR I'll say this about both cars. Viper has it right. It is cheaper to go 11's with a TR than an LS1.
Just a nitrous kit will NOT put an LS1 Camaro into the 11's. Your gonna need exhaust, air intake mods and PCM tuning at the bare minimum on a 6 speed car. An auto car will need a converter and a gear also. That would be bare minimum for both cars to do it repeatedly IF you can drive. Realistically, about 2k is what it'll cost you if your a savvy builder.
A TR with an air filter, dump tube, S10 wheel cylinders, line lock. underdrive pulleys, Southside bars, pinion snubber, chip and DOT stickies will run 11's all day every day at 22 psi. These parts'll set you back about $1000 bucks. Any stock mechanically healthy Regal can run the number. Been there several times. Hell, we were running 12.20's at 109 with just an airfilter, chip, dump tube, stickies and southsides. About 700 bucks for that et. I may try a 75 shot of squeeze to see if I can't run mid/low 11's on stock injectors/ intercooler/turbo setup just for kicks. I bet I can.
A forced induction motor has an advantage plain and simple.
Turbosam this is for you. I can get a stage motor for my Regal intake to pan that'll make 1000 hp for around 11k. Some are even advertised on here periodically so I'd call that an average price for one on the used market making that power level.
I just did the research on a 1000hp LS1 build up a customer is contemplating having me do. It gonna be around 16k to do a turbo LS1 that'll run reliably at 1000hp not including tuning. Keep in mind that yes, an LS1 ihas 15 years of technology advancements behind it, but! that motor was never intended to be forced induction. The internals do not have the inherent safety margin of strength built into them that forced induction motor has. You'll find that once you crest about 600rwhp in an LS1 that pistons, rods and blocks start to have issues. Therefore you must use premium componentry, which costs fairly healthy chunks of change, to keep that LS motor together. At that point it is no cheaper than buying a stage motor since you can't save money by using the stock LS1 shortblock for an engine of that power level.
And just to tell you how much it TRULY costs to make big power. The cheap motor to build is well known to be the smallblock Chevy. Parts are dime a dozen and plentiful. In my brother's garage is a 3rd gen Camaro that I built that has a 427cid twin turbo smallblock in it. It recently made 657RWHP and 640TQ at only 9 psi on 87 octane. I fully expect it to make about 1150RWHP and 1000 plus ft lbs of torque at the 28psi boost level it was built to run at. This cheapest of all engines to build has $23,000 invested in it just so it'll live at this power level on the street. If you think your gonna build a 9second full weight Camaro or Firebird without dropping a bank vault of cash into the car then you are delusional. Unless you want a 1 slip wonder. You know the car that makes 1 good pass and then grenades. Or you hack together some POS that makes the tech guys at the track ROFL when you go thru inspection.
About the only area where the LS1 has an advantage is streetability at higher hp levels. OK, extreme hp levels. A 9 second GN can be driven on the street easily. A 9 second LS1 can also but owing to its diplacement and airflow advantage it'll be the tamer of the two. Not enough to make much of a difference, unless you want the car ride and drive near stock. Lets say the 9 second GN will be like a musclecar with a cam, converter and big carb whereas the LS1 will be the same car with a smaller more responsive carburetor.
Just a nitrous kit will NOT put an LS1 Camaro into the 11's. Your gonna need exhaust, air intake mods and PCM tuning at the bare minimum on a 6 speed car. An auto car will need a converter and a gear also. That would be bare minimum for both cars to do it repeatedly IF you can drive. Realistically, about 2k is what it'll cost you if your a savvy builder.
A TR with an air filter, dump tube, S10 wheel cylinders, line lock. underdrive pulleys, Southside bars, pinion snubber, chip and DOT stickies will run 11's all day every day at 22 psi. These parts'll set you back about $1000 bucks. Any stock mechanically healthy Regal can run the number. Been there several times. Hell, we were running 12.20's at 109 with just an airfilter, chip, dump tube, stickies and southsides. About 700 bucks for that et. I may try a 75 shot of squeeze to see if I can't run mid/low 11's on stock injectors/ intercooler/turbo setup just for kicks. I bet I can.
A forced induction motor has an advantage plain and simple.
Turbosam this is for you. I can get a stage motor for my Regal intake to pan that'll make 1000 hp for around 11k. Some are even advertised on here periodically so I'd call that an average price for one on the used market making that power level.
I just did the research on a 1000hp LS1 build up a customer is contemplating having me do. It gonna be around 16k to do a turbo LS1 that'll run reliably at 1000hp not including tuning. Keep in mind that yes, an LS1 ihas 15 years of technology advancements behind it, but! that motor was never intended to be forced induction. The internals do not have the inherent safety margin of strength built into them that forced induction motor has. You'll find that once you crest about 600rwhp in an LS1 that pistons, rods and blocks start to have issues. Therefore you must use premium componentry, which costs fairly healthy chunks of change, to keep that LS motor together. At that point it is no cheaper than buying a stage motor since you can't save money by using the stock LS1 shortblock for an engine of that power level.
And just to tell you how much it TRULY costs to make big power. The cheap motor to build is well known to be the smallblock Chevy. Parts are dime a dozen and plentiful. In my brother's garage is a 3rd gen Camaro that I built that has a 427cid twin turbo smallblock in it. It recently made 657RWHP and 640TQ at only 9 psi on 87 octane. I fully expect it to make about 1150RWHP and 1000 plus ft lbs of torque at the 28psi boost level it was built to run at. This cheapest of all engines to build has $23,000 invested in it just so it'll live at this power level on the street. If you think your gonna build a 9second full weight Camaro or Firebird without dropping a bank vault of cash into the car then you are delusional. Unless you want a 1 slip wonder. You know the car that makes 1 good pass and then grenades. Or you hack together some POS that makes the tech guys at the track ROFL when you go thru inspection.
About the only area where the LS1 has an advantage is streetability at higher hp levels. OK, extreme hp levels. A 9 second GN can be driven on the street easily. A 9 second LS1 can also but owing to its diplacement and airflow advantage it'll be the tamer of the two. Not enough to make much of a difference, unless you want the car ride and drive near stock. Lets say the 9 second GN will be like a musclecar with a cam, converter and big carb whereas the LS1 will be the same car with a smaller more responsive carburetor.
ls1 vs gn
ls1 six speeds are money pits. I mean if you want a six speed get a frc vette m6 not a f body. Less weight, more quality, etc. To put a six speed ls1 in the 10's is expensive. To do a gn is easier to me. I had a 2000 ss & now my 3rd turbo regal. Definitely love the classic muscle better. JMO
ls1 six speeds are money pits. I mean if you want a six speed get a frc vette m6 not a f body. Less weight, more quality, etc. To put a six speed ls1 in the 10's is expensive. To do a gn is easier to me. I had a 2000 ss & now my 3rd turbo regal. Definitely love the classic muscle better. JMO
72firebird
Active Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2004
Wes 87 Turbo T said:
ummmmm have you really paid attention to LS1 stuff recently? It would take the same amount to put a 6 sp LS1 into the 10s as an A4 LS1. Besides all you need is either a sprayed H/C motor or a nice turbo setup. It's easy to get a stock internal LS1 into the 10s as long as you have somewhat decent suspension and good hooking tires.
true
but the power adder is already on a gn. With a ls1 you add enough spray to go 10's & the valvetrain, heads, cam become an issue. The whole drivetrain is suspect. m6 or a4. I know a guy locally that has a m6 ta that has put more money in clutches, flywheels, slave cylinders, rearends than I had in all 3 of my turbo regals & my ss. I spent money on my ss & realized it was a waste of time. The same money I spent on mods for the ss I spent on the total cost of my 87 t & then modded it too. The end result was faster & more reliable. They come with crappy rearends. Tuning is expensive. Adding a turbo requires alot of work. So what they handle they should. They ride like crap. Cheap plastic broken interior pieces, junk headlights, etc. Not to mention 25 gallons per mile when you do add the magic stick cams, gears, stalls, race clutches, etc. I owned one trust me.
but the power adder is already on a gn. With a ls1 you add enough spray to go 10's & the valvetrain, heads, cam become an issue. The whole drivetrain is suspect. m6 or a4. I know a guy locally that has a m6 ta that has put more money in clutches, flywheels, slave cylinders, rearends than I had in all 3 of my turbo regals & my ss. I spent money on my ss & realized it was a waste of time. The same money I spent on mods for the ss I spent on the total cost of my 87 t & then modded it too. The end result was faster & more reliable. They come with crappy rearends. Tuning is expensive. Adding a turbo requires alot of work. So what they handle they should. They ride like crap. Cheap plastic broken interior pieces, junk headlights, etc. Not to mention 25 gallons per mile when you do add the magic stick cams, gears, stalls, race clutches, etc. I owned one trust me.
72firebird
Active Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2004
Wes 87 Turbo T said:
Sorry I still disagree, but I guess everyone has their own opinion. To get an LS1 into the 10s you need rearend, heads, cam, a little tranny work, and some good hooking tires. With a TB you're gunna have just as much into it trying to get it into the 10s and get worse gas mileage. Really they're pretty even but I would give a slight edge to the LS1.
I dont know about the worse gas milage. My friend with a 86 T-type has run a best of 10.60 and got 26 mpg with a non lock up converter at 75 mph. I bet he could push 30 at 70 with a lock up. My 86 T gets 28 and runs in the 11s with a crappy tune. With alky injection, I would say its now easier than ever to get a stock turbo/intercooled TR into the 11s. Also there are many different approaches that will get a TR into the 11s cheaply.
No one said just a nitrous kit would put an LS1 in the 11's, we said $2000 would do it. And how many guys are going 11's with stock turbo's? Maybe a few. Sorry, but its easier to do 11's in an LS1 with spray. If 11's are so easy in a TR why isn't everyone doing it? Both cars have handicaps, but the proof is out there.
Oh yeah, point me to where I can buy a stage motor built to make 1000 hp for $11K. Hell, the turbo alone is going to be $1000+ by itself, then you have a FAST or BS3, big intercooler, etc.
The whole argument you guys have centers around your loyalty to your buick, which makes you blind to other options. I have always kept my eyes open and once I drove my turbo mustang I knew the turbo V6's days were numbered. We won't get into mustangs, theres no point. Suffice to say making the power it did with a 100% stock motor impressed the hell out of me.
I've built and owned an Ls1 and a TR, both are great cars but as the LS1 aftermarket grows daily the TR aftermarket continues to shrivel. The skys the limit with LS1 stuff, its nice to be able to dream about huge streetable power and actually be able to afford it!
Oh, I got my quote for my turbo LS1 setup: $21K total for the motor, heads, fuel system, turbo kit, intercooler, and labor. I'm not going to do it right now, as my tranny will not hold 800 hp, let alone 800+ rwhp. Thats dropping my car off and picking it up with 1000 hp tuned and done. Tell me you can do that with a GN.
The whole argument you guys have centers around your loyalty to your buick, which makes you blind to other options. I have always kept my eyes open and once I drove my turbo mustang I knew the turbo V6's days were numbered. We won't get into mustangs, theres no point. Suffice to say making the power it did with a 100% stock motor impressed the hell out of me.
I've built and owned an Ls1 and a TR, both are great cars but as the LS1 aftermarket grows daily the TR aftermarket continues to shrivel. The skys the limit with LS1 stuff, its nice to be able to dream about huge streetable power and actually be able to afford it!
Oh, I got my quote for my turbo LS1 setup: $21K total for the motor, heads, fuel system, turbo kit, intercooler, and labor. I'm not going to do it right now, as my tranny will not hold 800 hp, let alone 800+ rwhp. Thats dropping my car off and picking it up with 1000 hp tuned and done. Tell me you can do that with a GN.
I just happened to tune in to a horsepower program on the speed channel the other night. They had a 98 ls1 camaro on the dyno. It pulled close to 300 hp. they added 1k in parts from exhaust to coldair intake and some tuning. They then pulled 319 hp on the dyno. Just thought I would share that. I think many t-regals will pull that with a good tune. That is a guess. I would also like to add changing a turbo is eaiser then adding a nos kit. As to the remark why arent more regals running 11s? Once again I have to revert to my experiance at the track. I think more turbo regals are running 11s at the track then ls1 cars when I attend. I do see more 9,11, second t-regals at the strip when a group of them gather at the track and most of them drive to the track. When we have a buick get together we have more quick buicks at the track then ls1s even though there are many more ls1 cars racing. Just an observation.
We had a local guy in my area with a 87 gn with about 35k original miles. He added some parts mostly turbo, stretch cooler not a frontmount and never had to take off the valvecovers of his stock motor and ran high 10s. Try that with the ls1 or any other perf car without altering the factory setup it was produced with. Accomplishments like that make the old regal one of a kind.
rtviper said:
Yeah, because you know TV shows are well known for their parts selection an tuning abilities. Take for instance the 14 second TR in the show "full throttle"
Horsepower TV did the same thing with a thirdgen F body back when I was heavy in that scene, talk about wasting money for no power gain.
Im not saying LS1s are great I think its definately easier to go faster initially with an LC2 at least
72firebird
Active Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2004
rtviper said:
Ok a bigger turbo is a big change. However you can do it with the LS1 too. Here's a dynograph for a cam and supercharged LS1 http://members.cox.net/drewaz2/Vette01.jpg That's with stock heads and bottom end. You can run high 10s with an LS1 with just spray if you have the suspension setup right. Believe me the LS1 has much more potential than most of you realize. I'm a diehard LC2 guy and want to build a S2 LC2 but I'm also looking at single turbo LS1s. The power per dollar definatley goes to the LS1 and new parts are always coming out for them.
Turbosam6 is completely right. Many of you just need to go over to www.ls1tech.com and go into the forced inductions area. There's a lot of people making over 600rwhp on the stock bottom end. Go with a forged bottom end and the skies the limit. Heck they're making close 800rwhp on 93 octane true pump gas. The motor hasn't even been around 10 years and it's already got several cars in the 7s and one in 6s, and I'm sure that will be changing greatly by the end of this summer.
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