Heli-coil alternative for mechanic in Montreal jb racing at end of thread

[Paul Lohr]

I know of a local machine shop that machines the old head bolt holes and installs threaded inserts similar to time-sert. My understanding is the block can be setup in a machine that holds the deck surface perpendicular to the drill. For even clamping force, you may want to have all the bolt holes repaired...? Assuming you can find a shop to take on the task.

It seems like a decent Buick V6 block is worth $300. Will you have that much in the machine work described above? I'm not sure. Even if you pick up a used block, the head bolt threads may be marginal again and you are into the same situation.

 

[Chris Hogeland]

Iv done 1/2in studs on 109 block with no problem. Iv put insert in them too with no problem. I set the block up in my mill and indicate it in to do both processes.

 

[earlbrown]

The problem is not always as simple as which is the best fix. Budget constraints tend to limit us sometimes, too.

True. It's always cheaper to do it twice than right.


Make sure you don't run antifreeze while you're enjoying the car on round 1. You might need more than a block when it gives up.

 

[turbobitt]

when he tried to tighten one of them it slipped at 50/lbs of torque and i believe he said they should be 85/lbs.

Can you better define "slipped". I'm a little confused here. Is the helicoil pulling out? Is the helicoil galling against the fastener? Is it a fastener stretch issue and not a helicoil problem?
Also do you know the length of the helicoil? Depending on what's wrong you may be able to increase the engagement length.
AG

 

[williambavila]

To properly weld it the block will need to be cleaned and prepped, then heated completely to a red heat. Then it can be welded. It will need to be cooled very slowly, preferably in an oven that can be timed to keep from stressing the block. Then you'll need to have it dimentially checked and machined again. It will be cheaper to find another block in the end.

I like how you put this! this is the correct way to do the job. I have used MANY heli-coils in blocks and never one time had a issue.I have even stacked them for longer bolts. If it was inserted correctly it should be fine. You may have a crack in the block next to the hole allowing it to flex when tightened.If not I would call arp ask them for a little larger bolt and thread (this can be done) and re tap the hole this is the cheapest way. But fix it right and you will be ok.

 

[BOP4ever]

The loc n stitch is probably the best inserts available. The others mentioned are good too but the loc n stich system does not stress the parent metal like the others can IMO.


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[RmvBfrFlght]

Are most of the heli-coils in head bolt holes? The reason I ask is that this block may have had many of the head bolt holes drilled and tapped at the wrong angle. IOW, not perpendicular to the deck. There is a thread here someplace where a guy was building an engine, and IIRC, used studs to bolt the heads down.

With the studs installed and the head lowered down, the head wouldn't sit flush to the deck. It was found that a bunch of the head bolt holes were drilled at the wrong angle. Thereby not letting the head sit square & flush to the deck. If head bolts were used instead, this may not have been noticed.

It reminds me of something that happened a number of years ago. Guy recently had an engine built for his TB and was getting help tuning it. The tune was progressing and was even still at lower boost with a conservative tune, when one of the head gaskets let go and filled the crankcase with water. This surprised the folks involved as there was no detonation, the tune was conservative, and the boost hadn't even been turned up yet.

The gentleman that sourced the engine and built it was also present. After a bit of head scratching the builder mentioned that when he sourced the engine that it too at that time had a crankcase full of water (due to a head gasket letting go). So it wasn't the first time this happened with this engine. I never found out why it let go, but did think about it again when I read here about crooked head bolt holes.

RemoveBeforeFlight

 

[J-B Racing]

OK! I have been watching this thread for 4 days and I have been laughing my head off. I am the other so called mechanic who built this motor twice in it's history. Once in installed 6 Heli -Coils in which I had done my Research and had my Machine Shop ( Champion Engine Rebuilders ) double check my work. A Shop that has been doing Race Motors for the past 40 years or so. Since 2005 the Coils have been in there so if they were done wrong something should have let go by now right! What'xs your name again.. Stang Seller.. you mention Midnight Rider's motor is a std Bore..Did you measure the Block! It's .030" with Probe Pistons and H-Beam Rods.
I get an email from Midnight Rider telling me that because of me the Block is scrapped. That's when I started to laugh and thought this guy is in for a good one. So now I rebuilt is with SCE TITAN HEAD GASKETS do you know what these are! What's your name again.. Stang Seller right!! Now if Midnight Rider would contacted me in a polite fashion I would have told him what needed to be done. Now I will tell you both what should of been done. RE-TORQUEING the HEADS!!! NOT taking the Heads off and telling me that I installed them wrong..again I was laughing off my chair. BTW I torqued those HEAD STUDS because Bolts will NOT work with Heli-Coils installed. I torqued them to 80 lbs and NEVER slipped. So.. you telling everyine that I made a mistake is a little hard. What I think is that you screwed up on the Torqued installed and trying to blame the other guy. Now back to what I would do but I know you won't so go spend more of Midnight Rider's money is...Clean up those SCE Head Gaskets, get some Holymar Sealer made by Permatex.. ( You know what that is right ). Fix that Heli Coil you damaged, and re-torque the heads. But that is what I would do. Remeber that if you are going to get another Block you will have to re-bore the Block, possible Align Bore, Frost Plugs, Acid Wash, Magnaflux and so on... But hey it's not your Money anyways right!
I have been around too long for this Chit. So I came in. Said what I needed to clear up. Now I am out.
Good Luck with this situation Stang Seller...Right!

I am out...

 

[midnight rider]

i really didnt want this to be a flame joe, i just wanted my car not to leak. you returned my car to me and after a few days i told you about all the problems i was having. it took almost 3 months after your work for you to see me after i told you the next day and throughout the week the car was leaking. i brought you the car and this was your reply.(below) again, the next morning after i got home it was still leaking and i did drive it for a few hundred miles as you requested and it was still overheating. your response was nothing you could do and you had a bunch of other cars lined up so id have to wait either way but they all leak. i think there are enough things loose below in your email to safely say you rushed the job to get another car in. just sayin'
>
"Tightened the Oil Return Pipe for the Turbo. Was a little loose. I tightened the oil Filter. That also was a little loose. " I saw a drop on it" I tightened the Oil Pump pressure Spring Cap. " That could of used a little more, and saw a little oil around the Washer. Their is no leak at the Intake, or the Front Timing Cover. At this point their is nothing more I can do. I added 2 litres of water in the rad. Maybe that was a problem. NOT SURE. But remember that this motor is new and after 500 to 1000 klms, the temp will start to drop. This is a tight Motor and they tend to heat a little more at the beginning. The fan works....
Good thing that I took it for the first ripping. The Up Pipe came off the Throttle Body. I guess I did not tighten the Clamps enough. I fuckin sure did now. I worked on the car for a good hour and a half. to make sure I did not miss anything. GIVE IT AN OIL CHANGE ASAP.

 

[earlbrown]

That is one rich ass engine.

 

[charlief1]

And let's see how many more times you try to start a fight before I ban your ass. If you want to continue down this path I'll be more than happy to give you plenty of time to think about it. Take it to PM's

 

[Goat]

House if it is really that big of a damn deal hire ya a lawyer and take his ass to court otherwise this whinny. Bs is stupid cause his word against y'all and personally I don't give a damn to see it.

I mean seriously use ya head instead of the personal attacks. Ya know people get sued for that sh@t I believe its called "slendering"...

Now as previously mention don't really care... The guy should've took a mechanic in the first place before he bought his "dream car" to make sure he wasn't getting a pos...
Sent while waiting for boost to build...

 

[earlbrown]

It's hard to tell for sure from the pictures but the surface finish on that head looks to be a belt sanded finish. If so, take those to a machinist with an actual surfacing machine. The block looks like a factory original deck surface (even harder to tell for sure). If you want a solid gasket to seal, both surfaces HAVE to be machined FLAT and smooth! (and you're still not 100% guaranteed success)

Back when I used to surface heads everyday I HATED HATED HATED following up behind belt sanders. Nothing worse than beating the hell out of a machine forever just trying to get rid of a direct path to a water port and past the fire ring.

 

[larrym]

are the copper gaskets not always a PITA to seal? a Buddy has them on his bottle fed LQ4 and hates them they seem to hold things together but weep.

 

[earlbrown]

They are a pain. That's why you shouldn't even try to run solid gaskets with out FULLY prepped surfaces.

 

[Goat]

This is the wrong place for calls personal business if its that big a deal take em to court...

Sent while waiting for boost to build...

 

[charlief1]

I'm deleting your last post and I strongly suggest that you read the link I sent you before you go any further.

 

[charlief1]

Don't think you read it that closely then. Calling someone out is also prohibited, which is pretty much what you were doing.

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[earlbrown]

"likely to offend"........

Is that why my post count always shrinks in large chunks?!

 

[charlief1]

Have a nice life, but you're not welcome back Stank seller.