I don't know if my GEN 2 caused my motor to blow.

evil666

Active Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
Last night something went terribly wrong, I blew the original motor of my 86 gn. I am not a 100% sure but think that the gen 2 was the cause of it. I went on the highway for a test run to see what my wideband numbers were going to be. I had just hooked up my wideband to my gen 2, and I thought I had set it up safe and rich. To get an idea, this is how I set my gen 2.

SET-UP: wideband # 11.5 at all rpm except 11.2 at 4000 rpm and 11.0 at 5000 rpm.
Gain= 4
+ 5% high load at 4600 rpm
+ 10% high load at 5200 rpm
Lean Lim%: - The maximum % that the system will lean out to
maintain the desired A/F. It is advisable to set this around 5%, so the
AFR will not go incredibly lean if there is a problem with the wideband
unit.
Rich Lim%: - The maximum % that the system will richen up to
maintain the desired A/F. This can be fairly high (25%) to help protect
the engine in case of a fuel system partial failure.
Boost 25 to 26
Timming 23/21

When I floored the car from 60 mph to 110 mph, check this out, the ls1 maf showed a max reading of 130. What readings do you guys see when you floor the car with an LS1 maf? Anyways the car ran extremely lean and
these are some of the numbers. 4300 rpm= a/f= 14.2 5300 rpm= a/f= 13.0, 0kr, o2= .76, EGT= 1768. With the same boost and timming with my turbotweak chip and stock maf these were my readings. 4300 rpm= a/f= 12.2 5300 rpm=a/f= 11.6, 0 kr, o2= .79, EGT= 1748 and my stock maf always read 255 at wide open throttle. Was trying to tune my car richer to bring down my EGT with the gen 2 but my stock motor knocks now.

Need your help and advice on what you guys think went wrong. I don't want to rebuild my motor and for the same thing to happen again.


Thanks alot for any help I can get.
Marco.

T-Top 86 Grand National 62000 km)
stock long block, stock suspension, 12 inch red stripe convertor (2800stall), te44, smc alk injection (95 % etanol), 25.5lbs boost,( boost spike 28 psi in 1st gear), 94 octane, hooker cat back with dyno max ultra flow muffers, 42 ½ lbs 009 injectors, turbotweak alky chip with 23/21 timing, thdp, mease 24 row IC, Ron Custom max boost brake module, MT drag radials (275/50/15) 3720lbs race weight with driver. (Torque convertor locked only after car shifted in third), rjc power plate, rjc boost controller, zeitronix wideband, HR motor mounts, comp cam 980 valve springs. Weld Drag Lites with skinnies up front, electric exhaust cut-out.
BEST E/T
60FT=1.53
1/8= 7.25
1/4= 11.48
MPH=120.82
BEST 60FT=1.52
 
What fuel were you using? Were you using alcohol? If you made this run on straight 94, that is your problem. I would have started off in the mid-10 afr range, not the 11's. Also, is your Gen II wired correctly so that it can adjust the afr and not just read it? Are your fuel settings rich enough that the Gen II can subtract fuel as needed to maintain the set afr? Just because you have an afr set in the Gen II does not mean that your base fuel settings are within the correction range of the Lean/Rich Limits. You should have started off easy (lower boost/timing) until you learn how to use the Gen II.
 
What fuel were you using? Were you using alcohol? If you made this run on straight 94, that is your problem. I would have started off in the mid-10 afr range, not the 11's. Also, is your Gen II wired correctly so that it can adjust the afr and not just read it? Are your fuel settings rich enough that the Gen II can subtract fuel as needed to maintain the set afr? Just because you have an afr set in the Gen II does not mean that your base fuel settings are within the correction range of the Lean/Rich Limits. You should have started off easy (lower boost/timing) until you learn how to use the Gen II.

I always run with 94 and 95% ethanol, and I always ran my other set-up in the mid 11's a/f range with no problems with the stock maf and turbo tweak chip. My EGT were always a bit high and thats why I tried to tune a bit richer with the gen 2 with lower a/f numbers. I think I wired my gen 2 correctly like the instructions said to do, well for sure the gen 2 and my wideband were reading the same numbers and I was also able to change the a/f settings in my gen 2. Exactly what fuel settings are you talking about? Why is my LS1 maf reading only 130 when it could go to 512 I think? Your right I should of started off easy, but I just didn't expect this to happen.

Thanks for your help V6 POWER
Marco.

T-Top 86 Grand National 62000 km)
stock long block, stock suspension, 12 inch red stripe convertor (2800stall), te44, smc alk injection (95 % etanol), 25.5lbs boost,( boost spike 28 psi in 1st gear), 94 octane, hooker cat back with dyno max ultra flow muffers, 42 ½ lbs 009 injectors, turbotweak alky chip with 23/21 timing, thdp, mease 24 row IC, Ron Custom max boost brake module, MT drag radials (275/50/15) 3720lbs race weight with driver. (Torque convertor locked only after car shifted in third), rjc power plate, rjc boost controller, zeitronix wideband, HR motor mounts, comp cam 980 valve springs. Weld Drag Lites with skinnies up front, electric exhaust cut-out.
BEST E/T
60FT=1.53
1/8= 7.25
1/4= 11.48
MPH=120.82
BEST 60FT=1.52
 
you definitely hurt it on those a/f's. Maybe just a headgasket if your lucky. You should always back the boost way back when making a serious change in the calibration like that.
 
you definitely hurt it on those a/f's. Maybe just a headgasket if your lucky. You should always back the boost way back when making a serious change in the calibration like that.[/QUOT

I wish it was just a head gasket, but thats not the case, the motor knocks
now.

Marco.

T-Top 86 Grand National 62000 km)
stock long block, stock suspension, 12 inch red stripe convertor (2800stall), te44, smc alk injection (95 % etanol), 25.5lbs boost,( boost spike 28 psi in 1st gear), 94 octane, hooker cat back with dyno max ultra flow muffers, 42 ½ lbs 009 injectors, turbotweak alky chip with 23/21 timing, thdp, mease 24 row IC, Ron Custom max boost brake module, MT drag radials (275/50/15) 3720lbs race weight with driver. (Torque convertor locked only after car shifted in third), rjc power plate, rjc boost controller, zeitronix wideband, HR motor mounts, comp cam 980 valve springs. Weld Drag Lites with skinnies up front, electric exhaust cut-out.
BEST E/T
60FT=1.53
1/8= 7.25
1/4= 11.48
MPH=120.82
BEST 60FT=1.52
 
I am talking about the settings in the High Load (WOT) fuel settings in Gen II. If they are too lean, then the Gen II can't add enough fuel via Rich Lim. to get to the afr you want. If the motor is still working, try adding at least 5% fuel to each rpm range in the High Load in Gen II and then check to see if you are closer to your requested afr in Gen II. If you don't see an enrichment in your afr, then maybe you don't have the Gen II wired correctly so it can adjust fuel pressure based on wb/afr. If the motor is hurt, don't try this until you get the engine problem identified/fixed.

I can't answer the MAF question. Maybe the LS1 is bad.
 
When using a extender chip the maf number is cut in half.

Was wideband correction working? If so how much correction did you see?
 
I am talking about the settings in the High Load (WOT) fuel settings in Gen II. If they are too lean, then the Gen II can't add enough fuel via Rich Lim. to get to the afr you want. If the motor is still working, try adding at least 5% fuel to each rpm range in the High Load in Gen II and then check to see if you are closer to your requested afr in Gen II. If you don't see an enrichment in your afr, then maybe you don't have the Gen II wired correctly so it can adjust fuel pressure based on wb/afr. If the motor is hurt, don't try this until you get the engine problem identified/fixed.

I can't answer the MAF question. Maybe the LS1 is bad.

I gave 5% more fuel at 4600 rpm and 10% at 5200 rpm, because I figured thats where it would need more fuel. I didn't give more fuel at lower rpm. The motor knocks, I don't know whats broken yet but I won't fgure out the problem until I get the gn working again. Next time I will make sure to have someone in the car with me as I tune the car to keep an eye on the wideband numbers.

Marco.

T-Top 86 Grand National 62000 km)
stock long block, stock suspension, 12 inch red stripe convertor (2800stall), te44, smc alk injection (95 % etanol), 25.5lbs boost,( boost spike 28 psi in 1st gear), 94 octane, hooker cat back with dyno max ultra flow muffers, 42 ½ lbs 009 injectors, turbotweak alky chip with 23/21 timing, thdp, mease 24 row IC, Ron Custom max boost brake module, MT drag radials (275/50/15) 3720lbs race weight with driver. (Torque convertor locked only after car shifted in third), rjc power plate, rjc boost controller, zeitronix wideband, HR motor mounts, comp cam 980 valve springs. Weld Drag Lites with skinnies up front, electric exhaust cut-out.
BEST E/T
60FT=1.53
1/8= 7.25
1/4= 11.48
MPH=120.82
BEST 60FT=1.52
 
When using a extender chip the maf number is cut in half.

Was wideband correction working? If so how much correction did you see?

Are you saying that 130 maf readings are ok? I don't know if the wideband corrections was working because I had nobody with me to keep an eye on it. I wish I could record the readings on the gen 2 so I would be able to look back at it.

Thanks for your help TurboRick.
Marco.

T-Top 86 Grand National 62000 km)
stock long block, stock suspension, 12 inch red stripe convertor (2800stall), te44, smc alk injection (95 % etanol), 25.5lbs boost,( boost spike 28 psi in 1st gear), 94 octane, hooker cat back with dyno max ultra flow muffers, 42 ½ lbs 009 injectors, turbotweak alky chip with 23/21 timing, thdp, mease 24 row IC, Ron Custom max boost brake module, MT drag radials (275/50/15) 3720lbs race weight with driver. (Torque convertor locked only after car shifted in third), rjc power plate, rjc boost controller, zeitronix wideband, HR motor mounts, comp cam 980 valve springs. Weld Drag Lites with skinnies up front, electric exhaust cut-out.
BEST E/T
60FT=1.53
1/8= 7.25
1/4= 11.48
MPH=120.82
BEST 60FT=1.52
 
Yes, 130 is ok when running the extender chip.

I know it's hard to watch the road and the genII at the same time. I suspect that tracking was not working. What are all your settings in the afr tracking page?

I'm pretty sure there is a way to log the genII with tuner pro rt. Are you familiar with this program? Check out this thread.Logging with a Gen-II - Full Throttle Speed Tech Support
 
evil666--You are using the TurboTweak chip, according to your sig., not an Extender chip. I don't know if the TT chip reads the same as the Extender for maf value.
 
evil666--You are using the TurboTweak chip, according to your sig., not an Extender chip. I don't know if the TT chip reads the same as the Extender for maf value.

Good call V6, the tt chip reads normal.

Evil, what chip were you running? I assumed extender g chip.

On a side note, wb tracking will not work with a TT chip.
 
Improper use of a very powerful tool like this can be the cause of problems. If you have an extreme G chip the 130 MAF number would 390 (reading X3) If you are using the TT chip WB tracking will not work. 5% is not very much in the big picture to start I would add more like 20% or 25% and start on lower boost to work up to a new tune. I will help you figure out your tune give me a call or post on Full Throttle Tech
Mike
 
evil666--You are using the TurboTweak chip, according to your sig., not an Extender chip. I don't know if the TT chip reads the same as the Extender for maf value.

I am using an extender extreme g chip, whats written in my sig is the set-up I had the last time I went to the track.

Marco.

T-Top 86 Grand National 62000 km)
stock long block, stock suspension, 12 inch red stripe convertor (2800stall), te44, smc alk injection (95 % etanol), 25.5lbs boost,( boost spike 28 psi in 1st gear), 94 octane, hooker cat back with dyno max ultra flow muffers, 42 ½ lbs 009 injectors, turbotweak alky chip with 23/21 timing, thdp, mease 24 row IC, Ron Custom max boost brake module, MT drag radials (275/50/15) 3720lbs race weight with driver. (Torque convertor locked only after car shifted in third), rjc power plate, rjc boost controller, zeitronix wideband, HR motor mounts, comp cam 980 valve springs. Weld Drag Lites with skinnies up front, electric exhaust cut-out.
BEST E/T
60FT=1.53
1/8= 7.25
1/4= 11.48
MPH=120.82
BEST 60FT=1.52
 
Yes, 130 is ok when running the extender chip.

I know it's hard to watch the road and the genII at the same time. I suspect that tracking was not working. What are all your settings in the afr tracking page?

I'm pretty sure there is a way to log the genII with tuner pro rt. Are you familiar with this program? Check out this thread.Logging with a Gen-II - Full Throttle Speed Tech Support

Rick here are my settings on the afr tracking page. How can know if the tracking was working or not?

min tps= 4.9
min rpm= 3200
min load= 166.4
lean lim%= 5%
rich lim%= 25%
gain= 4
afr 2000r =11.5
afr 3000r= 11.5
afr 4000r= 11.2
afr 5000r= 11.0
afr 6000r= 10.8

Marco.

T-Top 86 Grand National 62000 km)
stock long block, stock suspension, 12 inch red stripe convertor (2800stall), te44, smc alk injection (95 % etanol), 25.5lbs boost,( boost spike 28 psi in 1st gear), 94 octane, hooker cat back with dyno max ultra flow muffers, 42 ½ lbs 009 injectors, turbotweak alky chip with 23/21 timing, thdp, mease 24 row IC, Ron Custom max boost brake module, MT drag radials (275/50/15) 3720lbs race weight with driver. (Torque convertor locked only after car shifted in third), rjc power plate, rjc boost controller, zeitronix wideband, HR motor mounts, comp cam 980 valve springs. Weld Drag Lites with skinnies up front, electric exhaust cut-out.
BEST E/T
60FT=1.53
1/8= 7.25
1/4= 11.48
MPH=120.82
BEST 60FT=1.52
 
Improper use of a very powerful tool like this can be the cause of problems. If you have an extreme G chip the 130 MAF number would 390 (reading X3) If you are using the TT chip WB tracking will not work. 5% is not very much in the big picture to start I would add more like 20% or 25% and start on lower boost to work up to a new tune. I will help you figure out your tune give me a call or post on Full Throttle Tech
Mike

Thanks Mike, as soon as I get a chance I will give you a call.

Marco.

T-Top 86 Grand National 62000 km)
stock long block, stock suspension, 12 inch red stripe convertor (2800stall), te44, smc alk injection (95 % etanol), 25.5lbs boost,( boost spike 28 psi in 1st gear), 94 octane, hooker cat back with dyno max ultra flow muffers, 42 ½ lbs 009 injectors, turbotweak alky chip with 23/21 timing, thdp, mease 24 row IC, Ron Custom max boost brake module, MT drag radials (275/50/15) 3720lbs race weight with driver. (Torque convertor locked only after car shifted in third), rjc power plate, rjc boost controller, zeitronix wideband, HR motor mounts, comp cam 980 valve springs. Weld Drag Lites with skinnies up front, electric exhaust cut-out.
BEST E/T
60FT=1.53
1/8= 7.25
1/4= 11.48
MPH=120.82
BEST 60FT=1.52
 
Rick here are my settings on the afr tracking page. How can know if the tracking was working or not?

min tps= 4.9
min rpm= 3200
min load= 166.4
lean lim%= 5%
rich lim%= 25%
gain= 4
afr 2000r =11.5
afr 3000r= 11.5
afr 4000r= 11.2
afr 5000r= 11.0
afr 6000r= 10.8

Marco.

T

Well, there's your problem most likely. Item #1. Min TPS is set to 4.9 :eek:

Unless your tps is hitting in excess of 4.9v reliably (which is doubtful), your WB tracking is never getting turned on.
 
Improper use of a very powerful tool like this can be the cause of problems. If you have an extreme G chip the 130 MAF number would 390 (reading X3) If you are using the TT chip WB tracking will not work. 5% is not very much in the big picture to start I would add more like 20% or 25% and start on lower boost to work up to a new tune. I will help you figure out your tune give me a call or post on Full Throttle Tech
Mike

So Mike,
i need an extender for my Gen 2 to do WB tracking & auto corrections?
Thanks!
 
Top