kolene steels
- Thread starter ITSAV6
- Start date
VictoryTrans
The cars stock....I swear
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
either would be ok...but naturally for more of a race tranny, the Kolene steels would be a better choice. HTH
BEWARE! Read Bruce's "Strenghtening 2004r" quote "use of kolenes not recommended" two reasons 1.) the one he gave me is the therory of kolene does not work 2.) if you are going to use them in the direct drum "beware" they are thinner then stock steel ones and you will not get the recommened end clearance required for performance and you will get flaring. "Caution" I did use them in mine but to get the required .038 clearance it took one extra blue and steel, but do this at your own risk! Bruce recommends using stock steel ones read his post http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31365
VictoryTrans
The cars stock....I swear
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Bruce, could you please email or PM me the info you have about the Kolene steels not being cracked up to what they're supposed to be. We're about to freshen up the 400 in our car and we have the Kolene's in there. If you heard about them not being good, I'd like to know why. Thanks a bunch
I have had good and bad results from the Kolenes. I use them in 400s and have several out there and atleast 4 that make over 1200 HP and are going on the 3rd season with the kolenes. I have had no luck with the kolenes in the 4L60 3-4. I have them in several 2004Rs does not really seem to make a difference. For the record ALTO has the worst Kolene steels as the coating will wear off. I have used others that the coating was on the direct clutches 5 years after they were installed.
need a light bulb
I'm a little in the dark about these kolene steels. Is there some where on the web to go and read about what exactly they are supposed to do, or metallurgy or specs on them. I read you weren't supposed to use them and just left it at that, but now I kinda wanna know why. Can someone post a link or explain the theory. -Chuck
I'm a little in the dark about these kolene steels. Is there some where on the web to go and read about what exactly they are supposed to do, or metallurgy or specs on them. I read you weren't supposed to use them and just left it at that, but now I kinda wanna know why. Can someone post a link or explain the theory. -Chuck
kolene is a coating that is suppose to raise the coefficancy (bite) of the steals and also disipate heat better. Maybe Bruce will share what he knows about the bad side of thease as he is the only one that seems to know that there is one, and I'll bet he's probably right.
WE4
TBcom Admin /Prayers NYFD/NYPD
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
OK.....
Kolene Steels are much too aggressive for extended use. They in turn, produce more heat which they cannot dissapate. If they are used in a trans with life expectantcy of 3-5 races they are ok, I guess. But I still do not recommend. The kolene coating has been known to come apart, in turn floating in oil. For a trans brake it is the worst thing to do. Not as much on hold side but clean release is imperative. I have NEVER seen any improvment with these and I tested several different styles and brands for Raybestos years ago when we were testing Blue Plates. Alto has all but come out and say they agree. I dont think Alto will even sell them much longer. Alto will tell you their findings when they are ready as I am not allowed to divolge specific info acquired through testing with or for them. The steels in all the hp kits (Alto and others) are the ones most effected or problematic. We do not use them in anything. At all. Anybodys brand. I can try to contact Frank Slocum at Raybestos and see if he still has the testing data and to see if he will release it.
Heat dissapation is the key here and they DO NOT do the job as advertised. We tested some in a lab with an infared laser and we determined heat was actually increased due to drag and aggressivness.
To combat this we (PTS and Alto) Are working on a mirror finish steel similair to the newer Honda steels. They are .101 thick and have a stone ground PERFECTLY flat finish that has shown to help coefficient of drag and keep surface temp down. Also anytime you can run a grooved clutch they help to carry the oil and to lube. This process is being tested and played with by us, currently. More to come in coming months.
In a 400 the .100 thick steels are perfect for direct clutch with a brake. With Raybestos Blue Plates and .100 thick steels You are in like flint....
If more factual info is needed I will try to contact Frank S and Alto and see what they will release.
Hope this helps WE4
Kolene Steels are much too aggressive for extended use. They in turn, produce more heat which they cannot dissapate. If they are used in a trans with life expectantcy of 3-5 races they are ok, I guess. But I still do not recommend. The kolene coating has been known to come apart, in turn floating in oil. For a trans brake it is the worst thing to do. Not as much on hold side but clean release is imperative. I have NEVER seen any improvment with these and I tested several different styles and brands for Raybestos years ago when we were testing Blue Plates. Alto has all but come out and say they agree. I dont think Alto will even sell them much longer. Alto will tell you their findings when they are ready as I am not allowed to divolge specific info acquired through testing with or for them. The steels in all the hp kits (Alto and others) are the ones most effected or problematic. We do not use them in anything. At all. Anybodys brand. I can try to contact Frank Slocum at Raybestos and see if he still has the testing data and to see if he will release it.
Heat dissapation is the key here and they DO NOT do the job as advertised. We tested some in a lab with an infared laser and we determined heat was actually increased due to drag and aggressivness.
To combat this we (PTS and Alto) Are working on a mirror finish steel similair to the newer Honda steels. They are .101 thick and have a stone ground PERFECTLY flat finish that has shown to help coefficient of drag and keep surface temp down. Also anytime you can run a grooved clutch they help to carry the oil and to lube. This process is being tested and played with by us, currently. More to come in coming months.
In a 400 the .100 thick steels are perfect for direct clutch with a brake. With Raybestos Blue Plates and .100 thick steels You are in like flint....
If more factual info is needed I will try to contact Frank S and Alto and see what they will release.
Hope this helps WE4
Surface finish
Thanks for explaining, so its in our best interest to use the stock steels (or new replacements) in the interest of durability. And since the mirror finish came up, can you take new stock steels and put them on a lapping plate ( i have access to one at work). The finish the machine gives at work ain't mirror, but its dang close. It runs in 1/2 hour cycles and takes off about 0.0005 " per cycle (yep 1/2 of one thousandth). My Q is, are the stock steels thick enough to withstand this process once on both sides ( for a total of 0.001" thinner) and still be good enough to use? -Chuck
Thanks for explaining, so its in our best interest to use the stock steels (or new replacements) in the interest of durability. And since the mirror finish came up, can you take new stock steels and put them on a lapping plate ( i have access to one at work). The finish the machine gives at work ain't mirror, but its dang close. It runs in 1/2 hour cycles and takes off about 0.0005 " per cycle (yep 1/2 of one thousandth). My Q is, are the stock steels thick enough to withstand this process once on both sides ( for a total of 0.001" thinner) and still be good enough to use? -Chuck
HellOnWheels
HellOnWheels
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2002
Are all clutch steels created equal, meaning one brand better than the other-exception being the kolenes?
HellOnWheels
HellOnWheels
WE4
TBcom Admin /Prayers NYFD/NYPD
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Chuck that is an awesome idea if you are up for it.
Chuck, I will bet money right now that if you took the stock steel plates and ran your process to test surface for flatness, you would discover that No matter what brand of steel you use they would not all be flat to start with. Not one. It would be very cool to send you or obtain a couple and cut to 1/2 of one thousandth. Ill bet most are out but .002 or so. Alto is working with me to get these PERFECTLY flat mirror finish ones. The absolute smoothest you can make the steel will be durability. With this you will sacrafice a touch of aggressiveness but clutch wear will deminish and heat transfer will be increased and friction will be reduced. I think your process would work great and being you have it available, by all means do it when you do your trans. OR, I will send you some , you cut them and I will test them. let me know.
As for the question above me by hellonwheels, yes you are correct as long as they are not bent or distorted as they are mass mass produced. Allomatic, BW or Alto stock. Gm steels are about the best to be honest.
BTW ... The term I went blank on earlier was cycling. ON OFF ON OFF this is where the problem lies. If a drag only car which was upshifted only , not really on the street that much, i suppose would be ok if the coating didnt come off and they were as thick as possible. This is why the 3+4 clutch in 700 and 2004r direct clutch has a problem. In a 400 it is mainly upshifted in a track car and my only concern would be transbrake release and the durability thereof.
Bruce
WE4
Chuck, I will bet money right now that if you took the stock steel plates and ran your process to test surface for flatness, you would discover that No matter what brand of steel you use they would not all be flat to start with. Not one. It would be very cool to send you or obtain a couple and cut to 1/2 of one thousandth. Ill bet most are out but .002 or so. Alto is working with me to get these PERFECTLY flat mirror finish ones. The absolute smoothest you can make the steel will be durability. With this you will sacrafice a touch of aggressiveness but clutch wear will deminish and heat transfer will be increased and friction will be reduced. I think your process would work great and being you have it available, by all means do it when you do your trans. OR, I will send you some , you cut them and I will test them. let me know.
As for the question above me by hellonwheels, yes you are correct as long as they are not bent or distorted as they are mass mass produced. Allomatic, BW or Alto stock. Gm steels are about the best to be honest.
BTW ... The term I went blank on earlier was cycling. ON OFF ON OFF this is where the problem lies. If a drag only car which was upshifted only , not really on the street that much, i suppose would be ok if the coating didnt come off and they were as thick as possible. This is why the 3+4 clutch in 700 and 2004r direct clutch has a problem. In a 400 it is mainly upshifted in a track car and my only concern would be transbrake release and the durability thereof.
Bruce
WE4
I have some used ones here I could mic before and after and send your way for testing. Already got my tranny put together or I would have done that. I did use the lapping machine to clean up the bottom side of the valve body(got a used BRF, had a ding on one of the passages I didn't like) before I put it on. And by the way it operates great so far. I don't have a whole set of steels but I can send you what I have. -Chuck.
Let me try it on a couple of used ones I have laying around. The machine is kinda big and I don't know if the individual steels have enough weight to them to get the job done. It sorta relies on gravity to help "push" if you will, the piece into the stones on the machine. Usually we are lapping gear pump bodies to get the scratches out, and they weigh around 10-15 lbs. They finish up in about 1 hour. I don't know if the lighter weight steels will be that fast or if I will have to set something on top to help them out. -Chuck
