Manual Transmission

The stalling issue I had mentioned in past posts was from the lack of a load on the engine. It is similar to the stalling that occurs with light weight high stall torque convertors. It can be compensated for in the chip, but will take some work.
As for pros and cons to the swap, I will let those interested use the search function on here and/or spend the money themselves to find out. :smile:
 
The main chip issue is going to be tweaking the throttle follower stuff so it doesn't stall when you push in the clutch and let off the gas. Same kind of stuff needed when going from a stock converter to a 9" converter. I think Buick even put some code in for a manual but it's been awhile since I read through that part of the code listing. Also, having gear switches would be nice to be able to pull boost and/or timing in higher gears. If you do this I would try to get Eric Marshall (TurboTweak Home) interested in doing the chip tuning - he loves challenges (hi, Eric :)) and has already spent a lot of time learning how to tune up the idle characteristics for best driveability.

As for the rest, maybe spend some time with some example dyno traces that people have posted here and the gear ratios for the trans you plan to use, looking at shift points, rpm drops, and hp. That will tell you how well you will stay in the powerband at wot. If you plumb the bov back into the intake pipe before the turbo it will help keep it spooled up even better than just venting it. Just don't make the air go through the maf more than once :).
 
You can make it work, but I want this thread to give you some insight and to let you know what you are up against.

Centerforce makes a steel flywheel for a Buick V6, but install will require rebalancing of the rotating assembly as the balance was off as it came out of the box.
I used a McCleod scatter shield which has dual bolt patterns on the back side where the gear box bolts. My application used a Saginaw 4 speed (dont try this as they EXPLODE) which is the same as a Muncie, GM BW T10 and GM BW T5. It also has the bolt pattern for a Ford Top Loader which is the same as a Tremec TKO.
The scatter shield was also almost $400 and the flywheel was $350 + labor to disassembled/reassemble and rebalance the engine. If you want to save some cash and are using a GM gear box NOT a Tremec, you can use a GM aluminum bellhousing from any 66-81 BOP manual trans car. There is another issue with any of these which I will explain later. You can use a GM 10.4" diaphram clutch (that is the biggest you will fit on the small Buick flywheel. Trans crossmember modifications as needed. If using a GM Muncie 4 speed or T10 you can use a G body crossmember from ANY of the 78-88 models with a 3 speed automatic. You can also use the stock GM driveshaft. Yoke would depend on what gearbox you use since the GM trannies can have a 27 or 32 spline. A Tremec TKO uses a 31 spline Ford C6 yoke and would require modifications to the driveshaft.
As for clutch actuation, you can buy the pedals from Muscle Cars only in Pennsylvania. The next issue is you will have to fabricate a clutch linkage to get from the pedal to the fork. The only mechanical linkage available is for small block Chevrolets. John Bzdell over at Monte Carlo SS Information & Resources devised a hydraulic set up using 3rd gen F body hydraulics. What you could do is use the F body master and run it to a Tilton hydraulic throwout bearing assembly which replaces the front bearing retainer on the front of the gear box. As the next issue you will have will be getting a standard GM clutch fork to clear the floor pan. When GM installed a manual transmission in the 78-81 model A/G bodies they had a special fork AND a special mounting of the fork pivot stud to effectively lower the point on the fork where the pushrod from the z bar would contact it. Luckily Buick V6's were available with 3 and 4 speed manual, although finding this bell housing is difficult since not many were made. The fork though is still available from GM and Muscle Cars only.
What you would have to do if using a scatter shielf or a non G body bell is you will have to clearance (read that as bash) the floor in under the gas pedal since there is not enough room for the fork to swing.
You might have to eliminate the console depending on where the shifter comes up. The 4 speed gear boxes come up off center of the centerline of the tranny tunnel and mount pretty far back. The Tremec comes up in the center and mounts very far back, but for less than $300, they have a mid shift conversion that would put the shifter in the same general area as the G body manual transmission.
...........................................................................
Still interested in doing the swap?
I have put together spread sheets of how much it would cost start to finish a swap like this and you are easily past $1000 without a gear box. Add in the cost of a new Tremec (approx $1400-$1700) and you can see it is very expensive. You could built a th400 or even a pretty strong 2004r for less.
Not trying to sway you. I had put a manual trans behind a Buick V6 before and have had manual transmission G bodies. I know whats involved. Ask if you have questions.

Thanks,
Lee Josephs
 
I started swapping a manual tranny into mine. Its an 81 with an LC2 in it. I used the pedals from an 85 camaro with a 02 camaro slave cylinder, which I spliced into a -3AN line and into a "nascar-style" throw-out bearing. The bellhousing is from lakewood for the BOP-style motor. The clutch is a Centerforce Dual Friction. As far as the tranny its a M21, which may explode...The car is still not done yet (no time.) As far as ecm; The ecm is DFI, but may be going to FAST, I am using the HKS SSQ BOV, which is in my opinion, the best Blow-Off Valve on the Market. YOU NEED A BOV WITH A MANUAL AND A TURBO, IT IS A GOOD IDEA ON AN AUTO AS WELL. The BOV greatly improves turbo life and spool up. My car is Speed-Density, as with most aftermarket ecm's. But if on a MAF car, it should go INTAKE->TURBO->DISCHARGE PIPE (with BOV)->MAF->TB. Most "turbo-people" would agree. I know it feels good to think our cars are "unique" to the turbo market, but lets be realistic. Basic theories behind turbos apply. The best app. would be ball bearing twin turbo's, as this is the best spooling app. but matching the turbo to the engine is extremely critical with a standard. I have no hard data, as the motor has to actually be in the car to run...
 
t-56

As far as the T-56, I am putting one in soon, maybe before I get it back together. The ultimate tranny is (again in my opinion) a Viper t-56 built for application into a "muncie-style" chevy, which can be further strengthened. 6th gear (unless you have 1000 HP) is not used for acceleration on any of the 6-speed cars....My friends Camaro has 1500, and even then does not use it.
 
guy with the Volvo Wagon in "hybrids section" is running an early T5 and says its holding up. Been trying to get some input as to what its like taking off. Not sure if a v6 T5 can be built to handle some nasty torque.
 
Reading this I get the idea that a turbocharged motor and a manual gear box is a new concept :biggrin: The swap is possible and yes I believe it could work well enough for what ever reason you're doing it. Just keep in mind it will take some tought and manual labor to achive it. As for how the car will spool in 6th gear...does it matter? I mean you're talking about an over drive gear. How many manual guys make it through the quater in something higher than 4th gear? I for one was lucky to even see 4th in my manual turbocharged car. Anyhow, if you want to spool the turbo on the high way in 6th gear, just down shift it :biggrin:

Anyways, ingnore my ramblings, I'm having a sugar with draw :eek:
 
guy with the Volvo Wagon in "hybrids section" is running an early T5 and says its holding up. Been trying to get some input as to what its like taking off. Not sure if a v6 T5 can be built to handle some nasty torque.

The GM T5 as used in the 83-92 V8 F bodies has a front flange exactly like a Muncie, Saginaw and GM spec T10. The 88-92 are the World Class spec and have a torque rating of approx 280 ft/lbs. G Force makes a gear set that is good to 500+ ft/lbs, but it is also $1500 for the gear set.
Stay away from 4 cylinder and V6 T5's as the gear spread is ridiculously low........unless you are planning to build a dump truck. :biggrin:
 
As for how the car will spool in 6th gear...does it matter? I mean you're talking about an over drive gear. How many manual guys make it through the quater in something higher than 4th gear? I for one was lucky to even see 4th in my manual turbocharged car. Anyhow, if you want to spool the turbo on the high way in 6th gear, just down shift it :biggrin:

Anyways, ingnore my ramblings, I'm having a sugar with draw :eek:

It's not about spooling in 6th, it's about pulling 6th, period.

Manually lock your TC and drive around at 35-40 mph in OD. This is what 65 mph in 6th would be like on the highway with a T56, only worse. try to accelerate. Enjoy the bucking.

A V8 can pull it off because it has compression, volume and torque our V6's don't have at 1200 RPM.
 
It's not about spooling in 6th, it's about pulling 6th, period.

Manually lock your TC and drive around at 35-40 mph in OD. This is what 65 mph in 6th would be like on the highway with a T56, only worse. try to accelerate. Enjoy the bucking.

A V8 can pull it off because it has compression, volume and torque our V6's don't have at 1200 RPM.

So how does a turbocharged 4banger spool/pull a T5 and even a T56 when a turbcharged V6 can't?

Neil's 1986 Ford Mustang SVO-ND - Page 2
 
So how does a turbocharged 4banger spool/pull a T5 and even a T56 when a turbcharged V6 can't?

Neil's 1986 Ford Mustang SVO-ND - Page 2

A T5 isn't .5 OD.

The article you posted is a poor example for putting a T56 behind a small turbo motor.

No mention of ever using 6th or even 5th for that matter.

A 2.3L that can rev to 7000 RPM, can put 4.11:1 rear gears in back and still be in 4th in the 1/4.

You put 4.11 gears behind a 3.8L and you will have to shift into non close ratio OD 5th in the 1/4 mile.

You first.
 
I started swapping a manual tranny into mine. Its an 81 with an LC2 in it. I used the pedals from an 85 camaro with a 02 camaro slave cylinder, which I spliced into a -3AN line and into a "nascar-style" throw-out bearing. The bellhousing is from lakewood for the BOP-style motor. The clutch is a Centerforce Dual Friction. As far as the tranny its a M21, which may explode...The car is still not done yet (no time.) As far as ecm; The ecm is DFI, but may be going to FAST, I am using the HKS SSQ BOV, which is in my opinion, the best Blow-Off Valve on the Market. YOU NEED A BOV WITH A MANUAL AND A TURBO, IT IS A GOOD IDEA ON AN AUTO AS WELL. The BOV greatly improves turbo life and spool up. My car is Speed-Density, as with most aftermarket ecm's. But if on a MAF car, it should go INTAKE->TURBO->DISCHARGE PIPE (with BOV)->MAF->TB. Most "turbo-people" would agree. I know it feels good to think our cars are "unique" to the turbo market, but lets be realistic. Basic theories behind turbos apply. The best app. would be ball bearing twin turbo's, as this is the best spooling app. but matching the turbo to the engine is extremely critical with a standard. I have no hard data, as the motor has to actually be in the car to run...
Be sure to check the position of the bore in the lakewood bellhiousing. They have some of the crappiest quality control i have seen on their machine work. If the bore is out of ceter form the crank centerline and the trans input centerline it will smoke the pilot bearing front bearing and more than likely the 4th (main drive) blocking ring in the trans. I rebuild a lot of these and see a lot of problems when guys bolt on aftermarket bellhousing without checking the bore location. The M21 should hold up for a long time if its a tight unit. It will suck with the 2.20-1.0 first gear though. You should have used an iron cased 2.64-1.0 1st gear ST-10.
 
It's not about spooling in 6th, it's about pulling 6th, period.

Manually lock your TC and drive around at 35-40 mph in OD. This is what 65 mph in 6th would be like on the highway with a T56, only worse. try to accelerate. Enjoy the bucking.

A V8 can pull it off because it has compression, volume and torque our V6's don't have at 1200 RPM.
The ring and pinion could be setup steeper using 5th as a gear in the quarter. Car should have 13.0-1 first drive ratio with the stick anyway. You could always opt for a different t-56 with steeper ratios in OD if you wanted.
 
The scatter shield was also almost $400 and the flywheel was $350 + labor to disassembled/reassemble and rebalance the engine. If you want to save some cash and are using a GM gear box NOT a Tremec, you can use a GM aluminum bellhousing from any 66-81 BOP manual trans car. There is another issue with any of these which I will explain later. You can use a GM 10.4" diaphram clutch (that is the biggest you will fit on the small Buick flywheel. Trans crossmember modifications as needed. If using a GM Muncie 4 speed or T10 you can use a G body crossmember from ANY of the 78-88 models with a 3 speed automatic. You can also use the stock GM driveshaft. Yoke would depend on what gearbox you use since the GM trannies can have a 27 or 32 spline. A Tremec TKO uses a 31 spline Ford C6 yoke and would require modifications to the driveshaft.

The 32 spline output GM transmissions (71-75 Muncie, 74-82 Super T-10) are about .75 inches longer than the earlier ones. The driveshaft may be a little tight.
 
Be sure to check the position of the bore in the lakewood bellhiousing. They have some of the crappiest quality control i have seen on their machine work. If the bore is out of ceter form the crank centerline and the trans input centerline it will smoke the pilot bearing front bearing and more than likely the 4th (main drive) blocking ring in the trans. I rebuild a lot of these and see a lot of problems when guys bolt on aftermarket bellhousing without checking the bore location. The M21 should hold up for a long time if its a tight unit. It will suck with the 2.20-1.0 first gear though. You should have used an iron cased 2.64-1.0 1st gear ST-10.


Best box for a tb application IMHO would be a 2.88 first gear Super T10. Richmond Gear now owns the rights to the T10 and they still make such a box, although it costs about the same as the Tremec TKO 5 speed. A wide ratio Muncie's 2.52 or 2.54 1st gear might work, but you might need to bump the gears in back to 3.73.
I agree with you on the Lakewood bellhousings. The McCleods are no different. Many guys fail to read directions and/or think that they wont have the problem until one of the bearings or the box breaks. Then they end up crying and blame the problem on the gear box.
 
The 32 spline output GM transmissions (71-75 Muncie, 74-82 Super T-10) are about .75 inches longer than the earlier ones. The driveshaft may be a little tight.


I never had a problem swapping between early 27 spline Muncies and later 32 spline Muncies with the Camaros and Chevelles I have done. Did quite a few and only swapped yokes to get the job done. Oh yeah, and the mount is in the same spot too, so its not a big deal.
Just an FYI ;)
 
I never had a problem swapping between early 27 spline Muncies and later 32 spline Muncies with the Camaros and Chevelles I have done. Did quite a few and only swapped yokes to get the job done. Oh yeah, and the mount is in the same spot too, so its not a big deal.
Just an FYI ;)
Its fine if it fits. If not the yoke will hammer the rear seal out and bind. Ive seen this before.
 
Best box for a tb application IMHO would be a 2.88 first gear Super T10. Richmond Gear now owns the rights to the T10 and they still make such a box, although it costs about the same as the Tremec TKO 5 speed. A wide ratio Muncie's 2.52 or 2.54 1st gear might work, but you might need to bump the gears in back to 3.73.
I agree with you on the Lakewood bellhousings. The McCleods are no different. Many guys fail to read directions and/or think that they wont have the problem until one of the bearings or the box breaks. Then they end up crying and blame the problem on the gear box.
I cant see dishing out nearly $1500 to get a new 2.88 first st-10. Not a cost effective solution unless you can source one used out of a vette with the 4+3 overdrive. It should still be put into a nodualr iron case which would have to be sourced form yet another super t-10. The useless ones with the 3.42 1st often have an iron case. Id still run the 2.88 with 3.73's. It will need it. Still have plenty left up top with no slip loss through the trans.
 
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