Methanol Question for You guys

M

mr.b

Guest
First of all I don't have a gn but i always loved them. I do bracket race a 230" dragster on methanol and was wondering why don't you use racing methanol? I get it for $1.85 a gallon and it seems like it would be right up your alley? It is 99.95% pure and i run it straight with no problems (has top lube mixed in it). This is just a question I was wondering about. Also, why do you mix water with it? This is just diluting it and bringing down some of the increased octane you could gain 100% alcohol? Just questions guys, not trying to start any flames!
 
Allegedly water cools better and reduces detonation more than alchohol fuel helps you.

Kinda convoluted reasoning but sound. :)

50/50 or 60/40 mix of alky./water works for me and is much less flammable than pure alky., also an issue.

This is assuming Ethanol not meth. Meth. is VERY corrosive and most of the kits out and available can't run it.

Just my .02.
 
Because you need both to reduce detonation, not one not the other solely. Both work well together.

Many do use straight Ethanol with good results, but I believe I get as good or better/safer results with the mix.

There is enough experimentation with turn on points, flow, fueling via chip control, and fuel pressure regulation without varying the mixture makeup and doing testing all over again.

Fortunately others on the board have pioneered these kits and post what works for them.

I tune for street trim myself and all dyno. and track times are in street trim which makes me :)
 
The WW2 aircraft made the most power on as good or better than the best gas we can get today by mixing methanol with water...either 60/40 or 50/50, I don't remember....and injecting it when they cranked up the superchargers in order to get out of town fast, if need be..
The 1985 Buick twin turbo pace car ....non-intercooled, had a bosch injector spraying into each turbo inlet and ran water methanol. Again I don't remember what ratio, but it was either 60/40 or 50/50. I used to hang around some when they had that at the plant.
The Buick powered indy cars were non intercooled and the fastest thing around for a couple years and they ran straight methanol, and the methanol WAS the intercooler.
The guys on this board typically like to run 93 octane on the street so we can go on trips and still be fast on pump gas by injecting water/methanol or denatured.
If a guy is short on fuel he can up the ratio of alcohol to water or run just straight denatured.
Seems to work well.
I use VP methanol and water on top of 93 octane. I don't ever have to change plugs or have to look for race fuel 200 miles from home and still turn 11's on radials....easily.
Hope this helps,
Steve
 
I believe there is confusion about the use of water/alcohol for detonation suppression and pure alcohol as used in a race engine application. These two scenarios use significantly different setups to achieve similar results.
 
I believe we (race cars and your turbo cars specifically) benefit more from pure alcohol instead of a mix. Since methanol has a higher heat of vaporization, it is not applicable for just any engine out there. A higher compression ratio (i.e. more heat energy) is needed to vaporize it. In my case, a compression ratio of 13.75:1, in your turbo cars, turbo boost pressure. All I see the water doing is lowering the egt's, which will help in preventing some detonation. This is why diesel tractor pullers use water injection. The only thing is the methanol will raise your octane significantly and cool the intake charge, but the water will not raise your octane rating (and you aren't burning as much fuel). I am just looking at the facts that pure methanol gives you two benefits and the water mix is detracting from its full effects. Also, I wouldn't be too concerned with the corrosivness of methanol. I race every weekend and let this stuff sit in the car all week and have never developed any problems (along with thousands of other racers across the US). As long as there is a good top lube in it and you aren't sending it through rubber lines or non-compatible injectors, which most of you aren't, there shouldn't be any problems.

One final note, I am not trying to get on here and be Mr. Know-it-all, I am just asking questions and maybe trying to point out some things I have learned that would benefit your cars. From what I have read on your board, the only reason the mix is better is because everybody else does it that way. I see this at the race track all the time. But, if there is some technical reason it is better, let me know, I am always eager to learn new things!!
 
There are sections of rubber lines on a standard TR fuel system.

Most pumps can't run it either without dying.
 
But the alcohol isn't going through the existing fuel lines and fuel pump, it is coming from the reservoir tank and braided line (at least with the SMC kit). So the car's fuel lines, pump and injectors are not affected by the alcohol.
 
>quote: "All I see the water doing is lowering the egt's, which will help in preventing some detonation"<
Yes. This is precisely what we're trying to do.
I think you are confusing applications and the methods used for those applications.

>quote"A higher compression ratio (i.e. more heat energy) is needed to vaporize it."<
I assumed, in a pure alcohol-fed engine, you used higher compression ratio because alcohol allows higher ratios. Actually there is a good bit more of technical chemistry going on than my laymans understanding can, um, understand :)

>quote: "I am just looking at the facts.....SNIP"<
I have found reality has a way of contradicting theory and reason. Read the facts, but also test them. You might be surprised.

>quote: "I wouldn't be too concerned with the corrosivness of methanol"<
In my system methanol becomes more corrosive when water is added. Over time it will attack even brass and stainless, leaving a white deposit of corrosion. Most Top End lubes contain lead which will poison the oxygen sensor. I have become seriously anal about tearing down and inspecting the system every Spring. I'm always surprised at the deterioration.

>quote: "the only reason the mix is better is because everybody else does it that way"<
I dont know about everyone else. Personally, I followed the research performed 70 years ago by Harry Ricardo. I tried to read his books. Way too technical for me. However, in a nut shell, 50/50 was best... _in this application_.
His work has passed the test of time. I figured there must be something to it.
 
Great thread.

I have tried several mixes. I currently use 70% denatured and 30% dry gas with methanol. This seems to work well for me so I have not experimented lately. This has been the least corrosive mix of any I have used. Anything with water seemed to corrode the most.

I push the car pretty hard at usually 25-26# boost. I think the results speak for themselves. And like a couple mentioned, the car (Ltd.) is set up the same for street or strip which is simply lethal.

Hank
 
just for anyones info. read the following about each fuel in this link. You may learn something, i did when i first read it.



http://www.briggsracing.com/tech_tips/


If anyone out there has tried pure methanol in their car, please tell me what happened when you tried it, why it was good or bad. That is all i need to know. If i had one of these cars i would try it, but i don't.
 
well, here's the deal as I have experienced...
Assuming you are using the system for detonation suppression, best performance will be with 50-50 or 60-40. There are decades worth of R&D on this.
If you are looking for (and think you can manage) additional fueling then straight alcohol is what you want.
In fact, either pure water or pure alcohol will both work, but tuning becomes more critical (more difficult).
Depending upon spray volume and mixture, the alcohol component can add a significant percentage of btu's to your overall fueling. This is where many guys running straight alcohol get into trouble. They wind up adding way too much (alcohol) fuel to the (gasoline) fuel and thus run too rich. Alcohol covers this problem up better than gas, but too rich is still too rich. Also, just because you are using some methanol, or whatever, alcohol, this ffact, by itsself, is not going to make you go faster. It is merely an enabler which you must determine how best to use.
good luck
 
One of the two Steve's either Steve C. or Steve Y. SMC and Maxeffort fame are running pure methanol.

Forgot which one. Special pump is required however.
 
Sounds as if Mr. b is confusing using methanol as a primary fuel rather than our purpose of removing heat from the combustion chamber via vaporization and the attendant heat removal.

I remember having to flush out the entire fuel system at the end of each racing day when we used to run methanol. I am glad to see that is no longer necessary.

On the other hand, methanol still destroys conventional pumps used in alky systems-even with lubricant added. Methanol, according to every source I find online, is only around 100-101 octane so it does not do much for us octane enhancement-wise.

Water removes more heat than does methanol but the meth seems to stabilize the process and repeated testing over the past 70 years by many people seem to suggest that a mix is the best.

Hank, and a couple of others have reported good sucess with a mixture of ethanol and methanol which takes the water corrosion factor out of the picture.

The only problem with a water mix is with a water solvent lubricant additive. I have been using RMI-25. Steve Y has reported detonation problems when using it. One of my cars is acting screwy like it has lost pump pressure and that started after I added the RMI-25....on the other hand, it had some WD40 in the bottle when I went to ethanol/water and I see it floating around in there so I may have screwed it up..who knows.

Prestone makes some water pump lubricant that might work....I don't know.
 
No, Mr.B is not confusing your cars with running only straight methanol. I have looked at the SMC kit and fully understand it is injected in seperately.

Also i have found the answer to all my questions elsewhere, and guess who the answers came from!---- GN owner's, tuners etc.

Here is the website-http://www.geocities.com/rad87gn/tech/alcohol.html

Looks like you have put stuff on here to Steve Wood!

From what i have read on this page, pure Alcohol seems to be more advantageous than a mix. Maybe I am reading it wrong though, you can look for yourself.

Some quotes from this page are:

--Water injection: 0.40 lb/min of water will vaporize, cooling the air down from 150 F to 109 F.
Methanol: 100%: 1.08 lb/min of methanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 96 F

--From the above, I gather that methanol actually works better than water when it comes to cooling due to its lower vaporization pressure even tho water when it boils releases more heat. I may be wrong as I am not a chemist -- John Estill's


--Alcohol is an oxygenated fuel--This
oxygen can then react with extra fuel and thus release more energy than was
consumed in the decomposition step. ---Carl Ijames

Too bad water isn't a fuel since it has oxygen in it to!

And here is one from you Steve Wood--

--I would think that Bob's experiences are born out by the above although it would appear that water does not help the process other than to remove some of the corrosiveness from the Methanol.

--Alcohol is an oxygenate, like nitrous (but much, much, MUCH milder). If you decrease the amount of fuel that the engine is using and substitute alcohol, the car will go faster (Much faster) at the same boost levels. The cooling effect is also substantial but I think the releasing of the extra oxygen is a bigger plus than the cooling effect----jay Carter

so Jay likes the extra oxygen better than the cooling, that would have to mean use pure alcohol in Jay's book at least!

maybe that is why Jay carter designed his pumps to work with
%100 methanol

--Jay Carter pump, it is designed to run 100% alcohol or methanol without any adverse effects.
---Jay Carter


And as far as compatible pumps with alcohol, this is from my experience--- A BG 280 pump with 2 holley blue regulators. Yea, i know they tell you they won't work but i have used this same combo for years. And this is with pure methanol sitting all week in the tank, fuel lines and bowls before a weekend race.

Pump manufactures will also tell you my pump would never work for a car running 5.1x's in the 1/8' either. Most alcohol tuners say, you got to have a belt drive pump or you will run out of fuel. They should be saying, you have to have a belt drive pump so I can make more money!

Anyway, thanks for all the help with my question and keep your cars looking and running great!! (one day I hope to have one)
 
If you had read more carefully, You would have noticed that Carl, who is a chemist, was refuting Jay's assertion that the alcohol released much oxygen as the oxygen in alcohol is "preburnt". Jay was using isopropyl as well which has some percentage of water added when you buy it. There is a substantial difference between "oxygenated" and "oxygenator".

Altho, water added to the methanol does reduce the corrosion factor, others, as noted in posts above, have found that they have more problems with corrosion with the water added...so it is not quite as simple as the chemistry may seem.

Jay used a Ford pick up fuel pump and it worked well with with isopropyl but did not last with methanol.

It helps to have been around long enuf to know the context from which the above comments were derived. Some of us have read the entire posts-if you wish to do so, go to the www.gnttype.org archives and so a search.

Chemically, I am not sure which coctail gives the best theoretical results. I have had varying opinions over the years as we have played with alky injection. Five years from now, I will probably have yet another.

Good luck with your endeavours.
 
Mr. B, I have been running 100% methanol for a time with my car and love it. I would not go back to gasoline. Keep on these guys. I have noticed that the way you promote rapid corrosion in a methanol fuel system is to introduce moisture (water) into the system by leaving vents or caps open and letting it sit in the line and evaporate away, leaving a powdery substance that likes to plug filters. Not to say that methanol is pretty corrosive on its own with certain materials, but water certainly doesn't help. If you can let it sit in the system without water content and evaporation it lasts quite well. I'm talking air tight which is not practical in most fuel systems or auxiliary injection systems. The big problem is that methanol is extremely hygroscopic and will suck moiture out of the air if it is exposed to the atmosphere. Just .10 percent is too much. Just ask any alcohol racer about how tight to keep the cap on their fuel drum. Moisture content in alcohol renders it, as a primary fuel, useless. Mr. B, let me know your experiences with using alcohol in your dragster. Do you flush the system? How often? Are you using any top lube? Whose top lube? How critical have you found the water content thing to be? What do you consider is a shelf life for a drum of methanol fuel that's properly sealed? What type of filters and how many are you running?
 
The best description I've seen on methanol compared to gasoline as far a oxygen content is that methanol is a partially oxidized hydrocarbon fuel. When methanol is burned, it doesn't release oxygen, it just takes less oxygen to burn it because it's already partially oxidized. So for a given amount of air or oxygen drawn into an engine, you can burn over twice as much fuel giving a total specific energy level that slightly exceeds that of gasoline.
 
As far as publicized octane ratings for methanol, my old motor had 10.5 to 1 CR, and was running 30 lbs. of boost. The blow up was with 32 lbs. but the boost level wasn't the failure. What octane rating does it take to do that? I have calculated that you would need over 125. Most octane tests do not take into consideration or actually negate the cooling effect of the fuel being tested. Well, isn't that one of the most important advantages of using methanol? It just isn't fair, I tell you. I'm forming a possy. Who's with me.
 
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