I agree with you. Weber has a very good reputation from what I've heard and seen before this engine. I have personally seen this motor as it was taken out of the crate and he's pretty much telling the true story. Maybe Weber didn't want to help more b/c of the way it was handled or that it was at a shop in WI and not local to them, but this was a very poor build. I don't know if it was finished on a Friday afternoon at 5pm or what, but there were too many loose bolts in this thing; and not the kind that should ever be loose in any shortblock or longblock build. It was disappointing to say the least. I have no vested interest either way. I haven't dealt with Weber directly on anything, but they were on my short list of quality engine builders. I also only know Andrew from this board and that we use the same guy for engine installs. Weber still is on my short list of good builders but this build gives me great doubts after seeing the mishaps first hand. Loose mains? Come on. And it was only inspected to that level after finding everything else that wasn't tight on the outside of the motor. I can verify this thing leaked coolant from initial install.
More Weber issues from my motor
- Thread starter 87GN 98GTP
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I agree with you. Weber has a very good reputation from what I've heard and seen before this engine. I have personally seen this motor as it was taken out of the crate and he's pretty much telling the true story. Maybe Weber didn't want to help more b/c of the way it was handled or that it was at a shop in WI and not local to them, but this was a very poor build. I don't know if it was finished on a Friday afternoon at 5pm or what, but there were too many loose bolts in this thing; and not the kind that should ever be loose in any shortblock or longblock build. It was disappointing to say the least. I have no vested interest either way. I haven't dealt with Weber directly on anything, but they were on my short list of quality engine builders. I also only know Andrew from this board and that we use the same guy for engine installs. Weber still is on my short list of good builders but this build gives me great doubts after seeing the mishaps first hand. Loose mains? Come on. And it was only inspected to that level after finding everything else that wasn't tight on the outside of the motor. I can verify this thing leaked coolant from initial install.
87GN 98GTP
Andrew
- Joined
- May 29, 2008
Thank you Matt. Didn't wanna have to go into it all again. Regardless of it all, I have pics, documents and ppl that can verify. I just wanted people to be aware. More news. Springs from weber were 150lbs and cam required 240lbs
You are going to have to go into it again since you started a thread about it. You need to post that specific information in this thread. What lobes and what springs were used.
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87GN 98GTP
Andrew
- Joined
- May 29, 2008
I posted as much specific as I'm given by the shops. I have some write ups but I typed that in my post to begin with the best I can. But here it goes what I didn't put in the 1st post. Some mains were as much as a full turn loose( I don't have the original torq spec before torqued properly). Timing chain, was from the paper work, almost loose enough to skip a tooth. Head leaked right out the studs because some had silicone and some didn't. This was the original problem getting it running. The orig post has the most recent info I was given
Let us do as you say and "Get the facts from Weber."
The camshaft and lifters were both supplied by you. The camshaft lobes were tapered and we ground this taper out without making any radical changes to the cam. If you would be so kind, please post the grind number/specs here so others can view it. In the meantime, I will post the last two digits of the grind number and they are "HR." The HR in the part number notes that the cam is ground for a hydraulic roller. If you dispute this fact, please call the number on the cam card and speak directly with James. He will confirm that not only are the lobe ramps ground for hydraulic roller lifters on this cam, but that they would recommend using them.
The spring pressure certainly will dictate whether a solid roller lifter would be needed, which others have eluded to in this thread. Because this critical information to back up your claim has not been posted, I'll post it myself.
Installed 1.750
Spring @ 1.750 = 140lbs.
Spring @ 1.250 = 355lbs.
Coil Bind = 1.100
The spring pressures noted above are just fine with a hydraulic lifter.
Certainly a solid lifter will give you the opportunity to add more spring and produce a higher RPM range. But those are decisions that could have been made at the point of sale. As I recall, we were under instructions to reuse as many of your supplied components as possible to reduce the cost of this build for a street build (see below) - and we did.
Half this "wrong stuff" was supplied by you, and we were instructed to use the components. What you supplied included the following:
Cam
Lifters
Pushrods
Timing Set
Girdle
Rockers*
* I even recall sending you a picture of the rockers after they arrived because they were so poorly packaged that needle bearings were scattered throughout the box.
We have built hundreds of turbo Buick engines, including 109s and Stage/TA aluminum block builds, and nobody has reported having so many problems with their engine. Nobody. Why is it that there are so many problems with this specific build?
Reusing components can indeed save a lot of money if they check out ok. But when those components are not properly matched to performance expectations, that's where problems arise. What you have is a nice build for the street, and we certainly could have used different components to achieve specific performance targets. But in doing so the cost of the build would have risen, which is something I recall was out of the question.
Instead of throwing us under the bus because this build does not meet your desired RPM range target, get some solid lifters that can handle a lot more spring. We did not supply the lifters, but used them as per your instructions.
While I would like to comment on the other issues brought up in some of these posts, I don't really think there is any use in doing so. There is enough misinformation about this build posted in this thread that I am left with the impression that the goal was intended to cause our business harm. Other members of this community can come to their own conclusions, based on not fiction but factual information.
87WE4BOOSTED
I NEED MORE BOOST!!
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2008
This is the exact reason i bought everything from them. Just told'em how fast i wanted to go and they sent me a quoted build. Pulled the trigger and its all good!wow !!! the other sides story. It sure does explain a lot. I don't understand why guys bring there own parts for a "build".
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Bryan Weber
Member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2005
The only issue that you had legitimately is that you had coolant leaking up from one or more head studs! The other supposed problems were mysteriously discovered when you employed someone to disassemble the engine. It's interesting how your engine seems to be the one that all of mistakes of the last 100 or so engines ended up in one place.
I recalled talking to the person that found the "loose" main nuts and I asked how that was discovered. I was told that when he backed the nuts off and retorqued them, they ended up in a different clock position. I explained to him and the customer that the main studs are only installed hand tight and when backing off the nut, the stud will often turn as well. So when the nut is torqued it will end up in a different clock position. Apparently that explaination is not satisfactory.
The spring pressure your heads were set up with was adequate for that cam and how you said you were going to run it. It was to be a street driver with mild boost.
The timing chain you sent was re-used because it was ok. Your description about being able to jump a tooth is grossly exagerated. A timing chain always loosens up once the engine has a few hours on it and that is all that yours was. We would have installed a new one if you were not squeeking about the price and your timing chain was not useable. You were also sent more than one estimate because of the cost.
Now you bring this back up two years later and force us to waste hours of our time defending our reputation against your slanderous illegitimate accusations. You claim this is because your engine quits making power at an early rpm. In my many years of high perforamance and racing experiance I have scene many performance problems caused by factors outside the mechanical engine. So until you have the problem totally solved so that there is no question about the cause, I suggest stop throwing out unsubstantiated accusations!
Pronto
Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2002
I'm confused with this thread. On one hand the OP is mad at Weber then likes someone's post saying Weber has good service. The engine had used parts and a cam that was wrong and needed to be reground. Sounds to me the OP should have just let Weber build an engine with parts that they picked for his goals. If it couldn't be build for his goals within his budget then he should have just lowered his goals or waited until he had the money. I've seen more than one patchwork build that was mismatched and didn't perform well but was a "budget" build.
I know Bryan responded, but I wanted to respond as well and thank you for your kind comments.
The most challenging issue in this thread is misinformation. That's why I did not respond to each "line item" that was noted. This misinformation is not merely isolated to the cam, but other problems noted in the thread. For example, the follow-up post by this customer noted the following:
Below is a partial screenshot from the invoice.
Now somebody is not telling the truth, and I assure you it is not us. We DID NOT have a blank check for this build.
I believe that we treat everyone fair and do our best to accommodate each customer's unique budget and performance requirements. Sometimes these two customer concerns clash, and it appears they have here. In this case it is simply impossible to meet a customer's performance expectations two years later, when he originally requested the installation of used parts to keep costs down. It would have cost $1,000.00+ more to accomplish this at the time, and that was out of the question when the job was sold. Now it's a couple years later and the customer wants more power. Maybe the money is there for it now, I don't know. But we did not supply the lifters for the build to run the added spring pressure the customer now wants so there is no money lost by the customer. We can't be held liable because a customer two years later decides he wants more power and now is willing to spend the money to get there. Nor should any reputable company sit by idle when false states are not only made, but clung to even in follow-up threads. Despite what the customer stated, by evidence of the invoice screenshot, we did not supply all of the parts for this build.
I appreciate the Weber's chiming in. Thank you for taking the time, and everything you state does make sense. Shows that you care too. I know time is precious, but I think your responses here were time well spent. You guys are top notch at least in character and it seems with engines too.
87GN 98GTP
Andrew
- Joined
- May 29, 2008
1 thing to say...If I pay that type of money and you guys kept calling me asking if I wanted better things(like flame hardened gears flex plate etc) why would I not want to make as much power as I can with the motor......Ive called before asking that question and I dont get a real answer. If I only wanted a street motor why wouldnt you say well that setup is too much for simple street use. And cam is made for HIGH horespower and suggest spending LESS money instead of a 12k motor. A little common sense thats all. Or ask me like you did other thinsg when the build was made. This type of money and all the upgrades do you want the right lifters and springs to make more power.
Now yes I sent some stuff to see if anything was good, MOST was junk and replaced it.
Now you admitted it might leak and did, so after the master mech changed the chain and re torqued the mains the motor still runs flawless, do you honestly think if those things he redid wrong the motor would still be in 1 piece, come on, its just deny deny deny. let people think what they want but im not a master mech and relied on you guys for help with what to do and not, obviously I didnt get that.
BTW until I bought a different ignition system it reved to 4400rpm, the ignition I changed to was a bandaid to the problem
Now yes I sent some stuff to see if anything was good, MOST was junk and replaced it.
Now you admitted it might leak and did, so after the master mech changed the chain and re torqued the mains the motor still runs flawless, do you honestly think if those things he redid wrong the motor would still be in 1 piece, come on, its just deny deny deny. let people think what they want but im not a master mech and relied on you guys for help with what to do and not, obviously I didnt get that.
BTW until I bought a different ignition system it reved to 4400rpm, the ignition I changed to was a bandaid to the problem
87GN 98GTP
Andrew
- Joined
- May 29, 2008
and btw all the stuff I supplied, lifters were wrong from the beginning according to the company you had the cam sent out, rockers were junk bought new ones, pushrods were if im correct would not fit with the new heads I bought, timing set in the sheet said checked out good but according to the master tech who installed it and noticed other things was no good and girdle was good but all the hardware was new.
BTW money was not an issue at over 12k. whatever weber suggested I said yes everytime cuz im not a master tech by ANY means at all, I simply said use anything that is good
At this point the conversation is moot
BTW money was not an issue at over 12k. whatever weber suggested I said yes everytime cuz im not a master tech by ANY means at all, I simply said use anything that is good
At this point the conversation is moot
87GN 98GTP
Andrew
- Joined
- May 29, 2008
Magically they now admit to it leaking after calling numerous times but Never apologizing but then everything else as they say "there telling the truth" calling me a liar in other words. Curious how something was wrong but others not. In a court of law when u admit guilt the credibility aspect goes away
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87GN 98GTP
Andrew
- Joined
- May 29, 2008
No. The guy who put this car together has an 8sec gn.
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Unfortunately it's all he said, he said at this point. I see both sides now that Weber has chimed in. It did still leak from day one, but it is also possible that the studs could end up in a different place after backing them off. Nothing against our guy, he def knows what he's doing, but he never mentioned backing them off when he told me they weren't torqued properly. It def needed to be re-checked at least with the other issues that appeared during install and break in. Dealing with anyone on something like this completely over the phone is tough though. Everyone makes mistakes; it just sucks when it happens to us and these cars when our dreams are so big.
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