Need Guidance with Roller Cam and Lifters Install - First Timer

[Terbro]

My background on turning wrenches includes single handedly r&ring a TR motor back in '02. I've also installed a T-5 Trans in a 240Z (hybrid project with a 327 V8) with a custom slave cylinder and clutch around the same time. So I've got sufficient mechanical capability when I put my mind to it...is my point.

I've also done lots of the other bolt-on stuff throughout the years on TRs...injectors, turbos, exhaust, etc.

But I've never r&r'ed a cam, so this would be a first. I've spent the last couple hours browsing youtube on how-to vids for cam installs. I've found several on flat tappet cams, and that looks pretty straight forward...those don't intimidate me a bit. Unfortunately, I haven't found any vids on a roller cam install of any value. I've also searched extensively on this forum on roller cam installs, and that's where I do get intimidated. I'm reading some foreign terms like "cam thrust" and "dial indicator".

Right now, the heads are off the car (the state where the former mechanic left it, and I'd be attempting to pick up the project). I've got the roller cam kit and roller rockers on their way from Cotton's coming in early next week. I've also got a pushrod length checker on the way from Summit.

So, I'm up for it, if folks are willing to guide me through it with patience and tolerance of a roller cam installer newbee.

I'd also like tips on what tools I should go purchase. I only have basic tools. I'll definitely need to go buy a torque wrench and I suspect feeler gauges. I have the option of having a mechanic install the upgraded valve springs on the Champion Irons for $100, or...can I rent a valve spring install kit at Advance Auto and do those myself?

But again, my main concern is the cam install itself, the sequence of the install (since the heads are now off), measuring the pushrod length, and the obvious...doing it right the first time.

So whose done a Comp roller cam and roller rockers install that's willing to guide me through this with patience?

 

[ITSAV6]

I did my own engine build and cam install. What roller rockers did you get? You need a dial gauge to check endplay. Push rod length check works like regular cam. As far as installing the cam in the block it's the same as flat tappet and lifters drop in the same(except paired). You may have to take the front cover on/off several times to get the adjustable cam button right. Get extra front cover gaskets. Are you pulling the engine? Get a new oil pan gasket, Pull the pan and leave it off while you do the cam install/setup. Have a good shop install/setup the new springs. You will also need to make sure when the cam rotates the lifter body doesn't contact the adjacent lobe(on paired lifters).



http://www.turbobuick.com/threads/cam-button-for-roller-cam.311305/

 

[ITSAV6]

I have owned 16-17 Z cars also...

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

I was always too hesitant to install rotating mechanicals on my own. I do some pretty heavy mechanical work, but leave the rotating stuff to someone else. I re-did my heads on this last build. HOWEVER, there was nothing wrong with them, they needed cleaned up and a little lap work is all. I made sure to have the springs tested for strength, and I marked every one and which exhaust or intake it came from. You cannot mix parts around in different spots. Removing and installing the springs made me cringe. Something about 140# on the seat makes me nervous compressing and releasing the springs. Oh, how are you going to check proper installed height? This is how you increase or decrease spring pressures at certain heights. You may or may not have to use shims, take away metal from the head, etc... I have a ton of gauges, dial indicators, calipers, snap gauges, etc to insure my installed was correct. Again, my shit was machined and installed correctly, just a clean up..you would need to do the same machining on yours to accommodate the proper operating tolerances.

 

[ITSAV6]

That's why I suggested having the springs installed by someone else, too much for me to fubar!

 

[Nick Micale]

..... You may have to take the front cover on/off several times to get the adjustable cam button right.........../

It is much simpler and just as good to use a metal roller button instead of dealing with a shim kit.

The first ductile roller cam I installed years ago was with a shim kit which was a PIA to say the least?

Since Buick used a metal roller button when they went to a roller cam in 1988, I figured if it worked for them, it would work for us too, and I have used many of the roller buttons since.

Your Champion heads have been set up with springs for a hydraulic roller cam as I mentioned to you.

 

[larrym]

It is much simpler and just as good to use a metal roller button instead of dealing with a shim kit.

The first ductile roller cam I installed years ago was with a shim kit which was a PIA to say the least?

Since Buick used a metal roller button when they went to a roller cam in 1988, I figured if it worked for them, it would work for us too, and I have used many of the roller buttons since.

Your Champion heads have been set up with springs for a hydraulic roller cam as I mentioned to you.

So the Spring loaded roller buttons work well with a ductile roller cam? Wish I had known that when I set up mine the shim system is a pita.....

 

[ITSAV6]

It is much simpler and just as good to use a metal roller button instead of dealing with a shim kit.

The first ductile roller cam I installed years ago was with a shim kit which was a PIA to say the least?

Since Buick used a metal roller button when they went to a roller cam in 1988, I figured if it worked for them, it would work for us too, and I have used many of the roller buttons since.

Your Champion heads have been set up with springs for a hydraulic roller cam as I mentioned to you.

Wish I knew this when I installed mine! It was a PITA!

 

[Terbro]

It is much simpler and just as good to use a metal roller button instead of dealing with a shim kit.

The first ductile roller cam I installed years ago was with a shim kit which was a PIA to say the least?

Since Buick used a metal roller button when they went to a roller cam in 1988, I figured if it worked for them, it would work for us too, and I have used many of the roller buttons since.

Your Champion heads have been set up with springs for a hydraulic roller cam as I mentioned to you.

Nick, are you familiar with the cam button that comes with the Comp cams roller cam kit sold by Cotton's? This is what I bought here: http://cottonsperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=EngRC On this page http://cottonsperformance.com/products.asp?cat=108, (scroll down) where it lists what's included in the kit, it says it's adjustable. I don't know if that's a naïve point...maybe all cam buttons are adjustable...that's what they do, replace shims (I'm trying to learn and deduce as we speak)?

Yes, I did request that you upgrade the springs to "100 lb springs", but Jack Cotton tells me the springs included with the kit I bought are somewhere between 140 and 160 lb springs. When I asked you to upgrade the springs, I hadn't yet conceived of a roller cam, only wanted a bit stiffer springs for the flat tappet cam. I'm under the understanding I need the 140+ lb springs supplied with the kit, vs what you upgraded. Since you upgraded those as a favor, I'm happy to return those unused 100 lb springs to you if you like. Though I respect your professional opinion, I really feel I should stick with springs specifically included/intended the cam kit.

 

[Terbro]

Oh, I wanted to say...my mechanic said he would help me with the cam install if I wanted/needed him (at my house). And I was thinking...maybe I could make a how-to video for a roller cam. From personal experience, being frustrated at not finding a how-to vid, I was thinking if I got enough quality guidance on this, I could film the process, try to edit it and *if* it's good enough, maybe it could end up being a sticky.

Normally, I would say I'd be one of the last guys to produce such a vid (having never done a cam install). I personally think that someone whose done it multiple times before and "has it down" should do it. But obvious that hasn't happened. But...in speaking with my mechanic today when picking up my car, he sounded like he knew exactly how to do it.

Just a thought...haven't decided, but maybe I'll give it a shot. If it goes smoothly, and of course if the motor ends up running right, then yeah, I'd post it on youtube.

 

[Terbro]

That's why I suggested having the springs installed by someone else, too much for me to fubar!

I'll have the shop do it and make it easy on myself. I know Nick mentioned that the springs he put on are suitable, and I appreciate that, but I requested 100 lb springs. Jack says the springs in the kit are 140+ lb springs, I really want to stick with those, since they're intended for that specific cam. I just don't want to take any chances...

 

[Bescurred]

Nick, are you familiar with the cam button that comes with the Comp cams roller cam kit sold by Cotton's? This is what I bought here: http://cottonsperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=EngRC On this page http://cottonsperformance.com/products.asp?cat=108, (scroll down) where it lists what's included in the kit, it says it's adjustable. I don't know if that's a naïve point...maybe all cam buttons are adjustable...that's what they do, replace shims (I'm trying to learn and deduce as we speak)?

Yes, I did request that you upgrade the springs to "100 lb springs", but Jack Cotton tells me the springs included with the kit I bought are somewhere between 140 and 160 lb springs. When I asked you to upgrade the springs, I hadn't yet conceived of a roller cam, only wanted a bit stiffer springs for the flat tappet cam. I'm under the understanding I need the 140+ lb springs supplied with the kit, vs what you upgraded. Since you upgraded those as a favor, I'm happy to return those unused 100 lb springs to you if you like. Though I respect your professional opinion, I really feel I should stick with springs specifically included/intended the cam kit.

When I ordered my Champion heads with the "upgraded" PAC Springs I had my machine shop measure the spring pressures and they only cam up to 125...just a fyi

 

[Terbro]

Got the heads back with the 140+ lb springs installed. My goal is to install at least one of the heads today. Gnttype.org is down...has been for over a week (does anyone know if it's gone for good?). This thread offers one suggestion on how to torque the heads: http://www.turbobuick.com/threads/about-head-bolt-torque-sequence.105311/

I've never heard of the 5x torque and loosen the bolts before to "condition" the threads. My mechanic didn't mention anything about that this morning either.

My plan is to follow the "X" inside bolts then outer sequence by stepping up at 10 ft/lbs of torque at a time, until I get to 80 lbs, with thread sealer on the bolts. Then retorque tomorrow again to 80 after an overnight cool (it'll get to 70 degrees here today, and probably 55 degrees tonight in the garage). That's my plan unless someone has important details.

 

[earlbrown]

I'd do a lot more than 10#s at a time. Using coarse threaded bolts 10# increments might not be enough to overcome static friction.

 

[Terbro]

I'd do a lot more than 10#s at a time. Using coarse threaded bolts 10# increments might not be enough to overcome static friction.

Roger. Going to get on it now.

So, I ordered ARP bolts from Cotton's and got studs. I guess I'm not complaining. The ARP instructions say to do tighten to 80 lbs in 3 increments. So I think I'll go snug, 25, 45, 60, 80.

It says to tighten the studs "HAND TIGHT ONLY", which I assume to be with the small Allen wrench (vs. with one's fingers on the nut threads, haha).

Bought Locktite Blue, but I can't decide whether to use it or not. Should I? The only reason I would be interested is if it reduces the probability of blowing a head gasket. But my thinking is that it would only prevent a bolt from turning. I can't imagine a bolt or nut turning that's torqued to 80 lbs. Maybe put it on the nuts, but not bother with the studs?

 

[Terbro]

And I just realized that Nick had used ARP bolts on my original heads. Had I realized that before, I probably would've just reused those. Oh well...but anyway...nice Nick!

 

[dynoman]

Bought Locktite Blue, but I can't decide whether to use it or not. Should I?

NO . Blue loctite is a thread locker & not needed . Some use Permatex Right Stuff and some use Loctite 565 thread sealant on the stud threads that screw into the block because some of the threaded holes enter the water jackets and need to be sealed .

 

[Terbro]

NO . Blue loctite is a thread locker & not needed.

Thanks. Proceeding without it.

So the studs kit included 8 long and 8 short studs. Obviously the longer ones are needed for the inside top holes. It seems best to use the other two longer ones for the top (inside the valve assembly). Do the threads in the block go clear through the block? Attached are two pics. The first is the stud just dropped into the hole, showing where it meets the block. The second shows that I can tighten it down about 3/4" of an inch and get the threads to the mating surface of the nut. Is that good?
I don't want to screw the stud too far down into the block if the hole goes all the way through the block (or not enough).

Actually, as I think about it, I'm guessing that I want the threads to "submerge" down into the head some, to allow the nut enough thread to be tightened and not run out of thread.

Also, once the stud is in place, do I need to worry about the stud turning when I'm torqueing the nut? I can't imagine there would be, otherwise one would need a special torque wrench with an open hole through the socket to allow for the Allen wrench to hold the stud in place.

 

[Boost231]

Wow....

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

 

[Terbro]

Wow....

Not sure I like that comment. Is there something(s) I need to know?