New TB relocation project...relocated turbo too

[Timberwolf]

Anyone interested? I am putting a PT61 on my car. I didn't want to make a clearance in the hood and try to run it in the stock location. I also didn't like the draw through TB setup, especially considering I am running the Spearco FMIC conversion.

Since I am running an electric fan, there a ton of room in front of the motor. This is where the turbo will be, mounted vertically exhaust housing above compressor housing.

It's actually fairly straightforward. I utilized the plumbing that came with the FMIC kit, just shortened it up and relocated it. Only things I had to re-fab were the up and down pipes, and a new adapter for the back of the intake manifold to mount the throttle body.

The actual mockup only took a few hours... And I will have less than $100 in parts into it (other than the turbo of course).

I'll start taking some pictures if anyone is interested... And if you have any questions or thoughts on it, let me know and I'll address them myself on the car and let you know what I found.

 

[J Banning]

I'm definately interested. Please post/email any pics you can.

banning@banningcohen.com


I've been thinking of something similar for the grassroots car we're working on (see sig for more info).

Thanks.

 

[WFO]

How's your oil drainback going to work?

My next project is to pressurize my throttle body.It should be worth some power,the TB is an intake side restriction.

 

[StaticErosion]

I posted that I was considering this a while back and people thought I was crazy. I'm still considering it, so I would greatly appreciate pictures from all angles and so on. If you would like, I would be happy to host as many of the pictures as you can send my way. Let me know at ryan@digitalerosion.com but don't send pictures, I'll give you an ftp account for that.

 

[Timberwolf]

I have hosting covered, but thanks for the offer.

I tried to snap a few quick pictures this morning while I was waiting for my other car to warm up before heading to work. Unfortunately my camera batteries had died during the night.

Right now all that has been done is mocking up the intercooler piping, and cutting the mandrel bends to form the new up pipe from the manifold. It comes up about 6 inches then curves over the top of the A/C compressor and heads forward another 6" before making a turn toward the front of the engine and hooking to the turbine inlet.

Like I said, that inlet is in the center of a vertically stacked turbo unit. So the downpipe will actually sit ABOVE the up pipe. It will come out of the exhaust housing and mimics the up pipe bends other then extending a little further back and dropping down next to the engine and becoming one with the exhaust just as it does now.

The compressor housing outlet is pointed directly at the intercooler inlet (which is on the driver's side of the radiator coming through the core support). There's less than 2 feet of pipe connecting the compressor outlet to the intercooler. The outlet of the intercooler is right next to the inlet, coming through the same hole in the core support. The tubing runs from there at roughly a 30 degree angle and heads for the back of the intake manifold. total length is around 3 to 4 feet.

The throttle body has been rotated so that rather than running parallel to the firewell it points directly at the intercooler tubing creating a nice straight shot. (It's pretty tight to the EGR valve, but I think I am going to remove that anyway). The back of the throttle body bolts to a flange that is welded to an aluminum mandrel tube. That tubes makes a soft 90 degree turn downward and will have the remnants of the old turbo adapter on the end of it. The turbo adapter is cutoff, so only the very end with the big o-ring remains. It's to be welded to the aluminum tube, and bored out as far as possible to eliminate restriction as much as possible. I will be custom fabbing a bracket to go from the intake tube to the bolt hole on the back of the intake to stabilize things nicely.

Speaking of brackets, I will fab a bracket to run from the turbo mounting bolts down to a convenient point on the motor for support.

Back to the compressor housing... the only thing left to determine is air inlet. I have the 86-87 style intake tube, MAF, and a cone filter. I don't anticipate too many problems though getting this routed. The turbo inlet is round instead of flanged like stock. See it here.

So what do you think so far, clear as mud?

 

[mycarsucks]

Now you really have my interest. I didn't think of running the up-pipe on the top of the engine. I was going to try to find some way to run it below.

looking forward to the pictures

 

[Timberwolf]

Originally posted by mycarsucks
Now you really have my interest. I didn't think of running the up-pipe on the top of the engine. I was going to try to find some way to run it below.

looking forward to the pictures

Yeah, the only real problems I foresee is I may need a heat shield for the A/C compressor, and removing the compressor adds a little extra work now due to the pipes above it in the way. I think it could still be removed from below, but I'll know better when I get things tacked in place.

 

[cool 84]

Out of curiosity, why do you want to move the turbo? You can fit a TA66 on a hotair which will go deep 10s. It seems like a lot of work for not a whole lot of gain. I'd like to see pictures regardless.

 

[StaticErosion]

Depending on how he does it, it might make fore a straighter pipe from the IC to the intake. I really don't like mine routed around the drivers side, and into the intake along the firewall.

 

[cool 84]

The routing might be a little cleaner, might not. But the intake plumbing doesn't make a difference on performance unless you really screw it up (86-87 IC neck comes to mind). Most people like the way mine looks with the powerstroke. Moving the turbo could make the uppipe into the turbo longer which will make a difference in spool. Plus you have to move things around to make it fit, make new oil feed/drain lines, make new brackets, heat shields, etc.

If something bigger than a TA66 is needed, cutting a little metal out of the hood seems much easier.

If it's purely for comsmetic reasons or to be different, I can see doing it. But from a performance standpoint, I don't see why.

 

[Timberwolf]

Why? because:
I hate the way they ran the i/c piping along the driver's fender.
I hate having 12' of i/c piping that's crush bent plus the intercooler.
I hate having the TPS see that I pushed the gas signalling the injectors for more fuel, but then the motor has to wait for the additional air to go through 12' of tubing AND the intercooler.
and mostly...
Because I love to tinker and see if I can do things better

Whether it's an improvement or not, I don't know. But at least this way I can swap out the TB, un restrict the intake inlet, get rid of several feet of tubing and go to actual mandrel bent parts, etc

And it's fun

 

[cool 84]

I definately agree with moving the TB. I did it years ago and was the single biggest improvement I ever did to the car. I'm curious why you don't have mandrel bends already? Not that it matters but you can get a 3" mandrel bend coming out of the intake with the turbo in the stock location with a little grinding on the intake. I'm assuming someone else installed the IC? Good luck on it, I hope it works out and I'm interested in pictures when you get them.

I remember a guy at a Buick meet in Bakersfield in '95 that had the turbo sitting on the passenger fenderwell and a FM Spearco intercooler. It was definately different, I wish I had taken pictures.

 

[Timberwolf]

Originally posted by cool 84
I'm curious why you don't have mandrel bends already? Not that it matters but you can get a 3" mandrel bend coming out of the intake with the turbo in the stock location with a little grinding on the intake.

More details? I'm not following what you mean on the 3" tube. I had a hard time running the 2.25" elbow coming out of the intake and attaching to the I/C piping. the compressor housing was WAY too tight to it and actually pinched it down some. I knew a larger compressor housing meant I would have even less room.

One other thing I am looking at for down the road is whether or not I can retrofit a larger TB since my application is only limited on size by the tube running from the I/C to the TB, and from the TB to the intake, as well as the actual inlet in the manifold. I'm thinking a stock ls1 TB might work well if the TPS&IAC are compatible. Does anyone know just how large the inlet hole in the intake can go before affecting the runners?

Someone asked about the oil drainback line. I am running a flange on the turbine housing outlet and braided line back to the oil pan or maybe even the timing cover. I'll have to look at what works the best. I'll use -10 line, and hopefully that will be enough. If not, I may have to look into a scavenge pump.

Cool84... with your TB relocated, did you have to run a BOV?

 

[Timberwolf]

took some quick pictures this morning:

First, this one shows the I/c pipes from the driver's side. The come thorugh the firewall and one heads toward the TB, the other ends right where the compressor housing outlet will be. You can see the curve on the end of the i/c pipe going to the TB. That will be cutoff so it will be a straight shot going in.
http://www.sixtyninecamaro.com/images/buick/driverviewmockup.JPG

you'll have to excuse the ugliness under the hood. I've only had the car a few months and have been pretty busy on my other cars so I just got to working on this thing. The fan spacer will be gone, trans lines cleaned up, and a whole lot of other tidying and organizing will be done as well.

Next picture is from the pass side. From here you can see the nearly final position of the TB. There will be an aluminum intake tube going from the back of the intake to the TB adapter plate (which you can see sitting in place now).
http://www.sixtyninecamaro.com/images/buick/passviewmockup.JPG

This next shot shows me holding the beginnings of the up pipe form the manifold to the exhaust housing on the turbo. As you can see it's stainless, about a 1/2 inch larger diameter then stock, and comes over the top of the A/C compressor. the down pipe will likely mirror the up pipe running right next to it or directly above it (maybe both). there is more pipe to be added to the up pipe obviously, but I don't have that many hands to hold everything There will be an extension coming straight off the curve in front of the motor, then the 3 bolt flange will be added.
http://www.sixtyninecamaro.com/images/buick/uppipemock.JPG

This last shot shows another view of where the TB will be, and it's orientation on the engine. As I mentioned before, it's pretty tight to the EGR, but I am probably going to remove and block that off anyway so there should be PLENTY of room. I'm also deciding if I should plumb a blow-off valve in somewhere just before the throttle body. The I/C tube isn't directly lined up with the TB right now, becuase I have to cutoff that curve at the end of it. Also, I have to shorten the adapter for the valve cover breather filter as the I/C pipe currently hits it. Should be no problem once I take an inch or two out of the tube.
http://www.sixtyninecamaro.com/images/buick/ictubetotb.JPG

 

[WFO]

I wonder if you could run the 3" DP under the AC compressor...you'd probably have to move some wiring/etc but it might make it a much straighter shot...

 

[Timberwolf]

Originally posted by WFO
I wonder if you could run the 3" DP under the AC compressor...you'd probably have to move some wiring/etc but it might make it a much straighter shot...

I was thinking about that. I'm getting ready to head out there now. I have a welder on the way so I can tack things together. I'll see what kind of room there is....

 

[cool 84]

If I could get a host, I could show you my setup with the 3" elbow out of the back of the intake with and without the turbo. It fit even with the 87 compressor housing. With the intake manifold off, I ground down the rear of the inlet and welded the elbow on with it tilted slightly toward the firewall. This slight tilt freed up a ton of room. I see you have the Spearco kit. Their small elbow barely fits because they tried to run it nearly under the compressor housing. Mine comes as high as the centerline of the turbo but since it's tilted it fits fine.

I would highly recommend a BOV. I have one now but I didn't before. With the big intercooler and lots of plumbing, even letting off the gas with a couple psi resulted in an extended "snorting" sound. I felt sorry for the turbo everytime I let off the gas.

If you need a larger TB, you might try the aftermarket 86-87 TBs. I know the TPS sweeps the opposite way and the pins are mixed up but it's just a matter of swapping a couple wires at the connector into the TPS. Besides, the 87 TPS is much cheaper. I think our throttle cable bracket will bolt on. The 87 unit is shorter but that's very easy to overcome. Good luck with the project.

 

[StaticErosion]

I'd be more than happy to host your pictures, and anyone elses that are car related for that matter.

send me an e-mail to ryan@digitalerosion.com

If there's enough demand, I'll find some way to setup usernames and passwords so people can make modifications to their sites whenever they want.

 

[cool 84]

Originally posted by StaticErosion
I'd be more than happy to host your pictures, and anyone elses that are car related for that matter.

send me an e-mail to ryan@digitalerosion.com

If there's enough demand, I'll find some way to setup usernames and passwords so people can make modifications to their sites whenever they want.

That would be awesome. My dad is e-mailing me my pictures and I'll have them ready to send tomorrow evening. I have pictures of my old motor installed and the new motor on the stand with some really good shots of the turbo/elbow clearance. Unfortunately none of the new motor installed with the egr removed and most vacuum lines removed. It looks much cleaner now with most of the unnecessary crap removed.

 

[Nocooler]

Timberwolf - if I'm reading this correctly the compressor inlet will face the ground and the turbine outlet will face the hood?

If so - you'll have serious oiling issues.

The drain won't drain - and the compressor seal will leak.

Turbo's weren't design to stand on end.

Maybe I missed something?

Jeremy