Paging Lee Thompson - Oil Pump Pics

[LOT]

parts HAVE to be flat

I have used them both ways. I have had no issues at all,several front covers. Parts need to be flat.

This where attention to detail is important.

 

[LOT]

Imho

So you guys think it is possible that .013" - .015" end play could be a major player in my oil pressure issues?

That combined with water in the earl--combined with no cooler=== lower pressure. I'm not too wild about the .0015-.002 clearance either. Having said that I believe you will have pressure now.

 

[Blazer406]

That combined with water in the earl--combined with no cooler=== lower pressure. I'm not too wild about the .0015-.002 clearance either. Having said that I believe you will have pressure now.

Not 1-1/2 thousandths to 2 thousandths ........ I had 13 thousandths to 15 thousandths end play..... ++

 

[TurboBob]

Not 1-1/2 thousandths to 2 thousandths ........ I had 13 thousandths to 15 thousandths end play..... ++

[Mythbusters]

Well, THERE's your problem....

[/Mythbusters]

 

[Blazer406]

[Mythbusters]

Well, THERE's your problem....

[/Mythbusters]

I only estimate it is that much..... b/c it doesn't even visibily squish some red plastigauge...... so I resort to some careful measuring.....

1.) gears stick up approx .005" above face of the spacer plate
2.) gasket thickness was approx .020"

.020" - .005" = .015"

And in this case.... the "driven" gear was sitting about 2-1/2 thousandths lower than the "drive" gear.

 

[TurboBob]

the last pump I set up I did by feel (perhaps the wrong way, but whatever)

I picked a gasket that would allow no perceptable endplay, but spun freely.

Probably about .002 clearance, but who knows.

I have never run a pressure gauge on this engine, I'm too scared what it would read. Its the original engine, already lost one cam in it.......

Bob

 

[Blazer406]

I hesitate to "say" this..... but if your gears don't "stick-up" enough above the housing, the thinnest .006 gasket I have isn't what I'd like to have..... If I wanted to follow T/A's instructions, I would need to take a little off the housing.... say around .002". How would one accomplish this?

I could possibly see trying to "take a little" off using some glass and sandpaper.... making you a block sander.....

Carefully taking off a little with a flat file might also be do-able......but would definately be more tricky than the block sanding......

This would allow the .006" gasket along with a mylar shim.... to exactly set up the pump clearances....

 

[LOT]

Not 1-1/2 thousandths to 2 thousandths ........ I had 13 thousandths to 15 thousandths end play..... ++

I was refering to your rods and mains.

 

[Blazer406]

I was refering to your rods and mains.

Oops! Took that the wrong way....

 

[Just a Six??]

I hesitate to "say" this..... but if your gears don't "stick-up" enough above the housing, the thinnest .006 gasket I have isn't what I'd like to have..... If I wanted to follow T/A's instructions, I would need to take a little off the housing.... say around .002". How would one accomplish this?

I could possibly see trying to "take a little" off using some glass and sandpaper.... making you a block sander.....

Carefully taking off a little with a flat file might also be do-able......but would definately be more tricky than the block sanding......

This would allow the .006" gasket along with a mylar shim.... to exactly set up the pump clearances....

3 times I have taken a file & gone over very easy to see high spots if any. Then keep going some more from all angles but so its always flat & on 2 surfaces. Then the glass & sandpaper & 2 thous is easy to take off. Just go slow & keep it all nice & straight & flat. Some machine shops can do it with the right machine but I only know 1 guy that has a proper machine & not just some belt sander! You can also use a 4" palm sander with light paper in circular motions before the glass. Takes a few hours & its perfect!

 

[rw87tt]

I sure hope you keep us posted. I really want to see what the problem was. I think it's the gear thrust end clearance. When you check your oil pressure use the thinner oil. NOT the 90 weight. Put a guage somewhere. Use a drill motor with a shaft to turn your pump. If your pump is right. It should build plenty of pressure.

 

[Blazer406]

I sure hope you keep us posted. I really want to see what the problem was. I think it's the gear thrust end clearance. When you check your oil pressure use the thinner oil. NOT the 90 weight. Put a guage somewhere. Use a drill motor with a shaft to turn your pump. If your pump is right. It should build plenty of pressure.

Working on it right now..... planning on trying some Castrol 10W40 later tonight if I can get it back together....

 

[TurboBob]

waiting and watching......

 

[Blazer406]

I quit for tonight....

I got the pump set up.... everything polished....and put together..... then I put the timing cover back on the motor....tightened all the bolts down. Next I decided to prime the engine with a drill... and one of those priming tools...... within 5 sec.... had pressure...... but wait! .... theres a freaking oil leak between the pump cover and the pump housing ..... I dunno what I did..... gonna drop the pump cover down a little clean it and dry it..... and try some coppercoat in the morning. Try as I might.....this thing is still testing my patience.

I will make a jig next time to put the timing cover on.... so I can pressure up everything and check for leaks...

Maybe she will run tomorrow? gotta happen before lunch or it will end up being several days before I can mess with it again....

 

[TurboBob]

check the surfaces for flatness (obvious I guess)

Good luck

happy turkey day

 

[Blazer406]

I thought I had it pretty good..... I did have to sand more on one side than the other.... to get the face of the gear parallel with the plane the housing makes....... for whatever reason.... my housing was out of plane with the gear face by about .001 or so.....

 

[Blazer406]

My pump cover was not flat..... I started sanding on a belt sander.... until all the grooves were gone... then I (probably hurridly) tried to sand it on some glass and sandpaper.... and didn't check it real good.

I have sanded it this morning for near 2 hours... with 220 grit paper....and it is flat... flat now....

Maybe this afternoon I can get it back on.

I shouldn't have gotten in a hurry....

 

[Jerryl]

My results are in.

Well, it feels good to measure.
Got an HV aftermarket cover (Had it for about 5 years) and dropped in some new gears.

Here are the measurements;
Lash – 0.007" - YOWDZER! (Spec – 0.0015-0.003")
Clearance between gear teeth and side wall 0.003 (Spec - 0.003-0.005")
End clearance 0.0015-0.003", NO gasket! (Spec - 0.002-0.006")
Gasket is 0.005", uncompressed, and end play was waaaay too loose with the gasket.
Blue Printing Oil Pump

The cover is a bit scored, so I am waiting for the new one to arrive.
Measurements were done with the cast wear plate in the kit, which is reasonably flat (Appears to be less than 0.001”).

Interesting you will see in the pic that the drive gear is concaved. There are clearly some markes on 2 of the teeth while the other appear to be clean
Wish I had the center-center gear dimension.

Options:
1-Start over
2-Lap the gear, AND the cover to be able to set the end clearance with the 0.005 uncompressed gasket.
3-Run it till it blows.

Just thought I would share, and not hijack the thread.
Point is; Apparently, the end clearance issue is not isolated to your case, although, a sample of 2 does not result in a "trend".

 

[Blazer406]

Well, it feels good to measure.
Got an HV aftermarket cover (Had it for about 5 years) and dropped in some new gears.

Here are the measurements;
Lash – 0.007" - YOWDZER! (Spec – 0.0015-0.003")
Clearance between gear teeth and side wall 0.003 (Spec - 0.003-0.005")
End clearance 0.0015-0.003", NO gasket! (Spec - 0.002-0.006")
Gasket is 0.005", uncompressed, and end play was waaaay too loose with the gasket.
Blue Printing Oil Pump

The cover is a bit scored, so I am waiting for the new one to arrive.
Measurements were done with the cast wear plate in the kit, which is reasonably flat (Appears to be less than 0.001”).

Interesting you will see in the pic that the drive gear is concaved. There are clearly some markes on 2 of the teeth while the other appear to be clean
Wish I had the center-center gear dimension.

Options:
1-Start over
2-Lap the gear, AND the cover to be able to set the end clearance with the 0.005 uncompressed gasket.
3-Run it till it blows.

Just thought I would share, and not hijack the thread.
Point is; Apparently, the end clearance issue is not isolated to your case, although, a sample of 2 does not result in a "trend".

Cool. I have now taken my cover back off.... got in too much of a hurry... and my housing wasn't flat... and I had an oil leak on prime-up..... I have got my housing to cover flatness within .0015 or so.... still needs some work. My cover is perfectly flat.... thanks to nearly 2 hours of sanding on a piece of glass..... if you want it right.... you have to carefully observe..... and take your time. In my case.... I attempted to get the heavy sanding to the cover to get all the scores out (I have chosen not to run the booster plate.... just wet sand the cover until she is good and flat with no grooves.......) using.... :redface:.....a belt sander......:redface:.... well......even if you do it carefully..... the cover ends up kinda bowl shaped....and it takes several hours on a piece of glass with 220 grit to get it back flat....... now my housing seems to be not flat..... when I put the cover on it... tighten it down... with no gears in it...... tightened with a nut driver only..... I can get a .0015 feeler gauge under the cover in like 2-3 places... .... I gotta get me a small piece of glass and try and sand that bugger flat...... then I might be close to setting up the end play one more time.... and putting it back on the car.....

Been doing the family thing mostly today... and probably won't get to mess with it again....until Sunday.

 

[Blazer406]

check the surfaces for flatness (obvious I guess)

Good luck

happy turkey day

Yea.... rub it in.... here.... LOL