Picking a New Full Race Stall Speed

[Alky V6]

I remember when I was playing with the T76,... tuning that combination in.
People were criticizing me then on the TC stall at that time, even though I was still making clear and big advances with the tuneup.
Then came the 1.28 60', and all of a sudden,... silence from the peanut gallery. It was truly amazing. Very little congratulations, and a lot of eating their own words quietly behind their keyboard.

I suppose some are just lazy about exploring the tuneup on their engine, simply find a tuneup that's good enough for government work, and pick a TC based on that. And, that's just fine. Whatever floats your boat. But,... I surely hope that the tuneup was picked first, and then the TC, and not the other way around.

 

[Alky V6]

Don

I really think this is a simple case of all these guys having incredible faith in
Dusty's ability to spec out what you need.

The might have delivered the message a little smoother but I think the are trying to say you are missing out.

I have seen results first hand of an optimized engine tune and a popular bolt together unit they worked with for years get blown out of the water by a unit spec'd by dusty fresh out of the box. it truly was a sight to see.

Did you just state that you optimized the engine tune first?

How can I be missing out if I just finished optimizing the tune on the engine last weekend? Are you trying to tell me that I should have picked a TC before I finished finalizing the tuneup on the engine?

 

[Alky V6]

I would never trust the opinion of a TC technician, or anyone else for that matter, that wasn't interested in the performance numbers on an optimized engine tune, among other details on the car FIRST.

If someone is declaring that I need a different stall TC, before I've even finalized the tuneup on the engine, just shows me how much they really know, and how much they really should leave the advice up to the experts.

 

[BadAssGN]

This (not my car) was a TSO car and every thing was optimized, it performed very well from what I saw and the convertor they used was dialed in as good as they could get it. They we in awe how well the new PTC convertor worked out.

I think the Faith in Dusty comes when he Nails the Spec first try.

 

[BadAssGN]

I would never trust the opinion of a TC technician that wasn't interested in the performance numbers on an optimized engine tune among other detail on the car FIRST.

Agreed and I'm happy to hear you got it dialed. I can't wait to see what is in store when you get your new Convertor.


I do remember you stating you knew the convertor was too tight. but you wanting to optimize stands to reason.

The good news is your Trans is holding up well :biggrin:

 

[BadAssGN]

Another quick point Don is the fact that some, even most of the combinations Normal Buick racers use is a known combination or at least simular to the point where you wouldn't have to supply every bit of data.

Or I could be way off base and need to step away from the keyboard.

BTW I am only interested because this is my single favorate Project on this whole site.

 

[Alky V6]

Another quick point Don is the fact that some, even most of the combinations Normal Buick racers use is a known combination or at least simular to the point where you wouldn't have to supply every bit of data.

Or I could be way off base and need to step away from the keyboard.

BTW I am only interested because this is my single favorate Project on this whole site.

I appreciate that, and I can tell that you're trying to provide constructive advice. I thank you for that. It's some of the others that, after the fact, like to act as if they had a magic crystal ball that was telling them what TC I needed, while I was still dialing in the engine tuneup. Just amazing to me.

I realize some want to see Dusty sell more units, but man, leave the advanced advice up to the experts. Please.

 

[lazaris]

Understanding your desire to make what you had work, in the end it comes down to combination, combination, combination.
In this case the part selection for this combination wasnt really the best. In the case of trying to get the most out of the "tune" and using a large amount of no2 with constant varible temps and pressures effecting the no2, it makes it more difficult to repeat from run to run. The combination required so much help to get it going and it seemed to have too much reliance on O2 feedback. For the most part you are letting the O2 do all the work and at best that is an after-the-fact tuning solution. The correct converter will bring the combination closer together and your tuning more repeatable. Good luck.

 

[S2V6RACER]

I appreciate that, and I can tell that you're trying to provide constructive advice. I thank you for that. It's some of the others that, after the fact, like to act as if they had a magic crystal ball that was telling them what TC I needed, while I was still dialing in the engine tuneup. Just amazing to me.

I realize some want to see Dusty sell more units, but man, leave the advanced advice up to the experts. Please.

Don, I think everybody here is trying to give you constructive advice. I don't think anybody is trying to sell converters for Dusty, they sell themselves. Anybody who has paid their dues in converter swaps knows how frustrating it can be so I think they are just trying to save you some of the same lessons they learned. I would say you have had some advice from some of the best experts here on the sites in the last couple years.

Good luck....

 

[Alky V6]

Understanding your desire to make what you had work, in the end it comes down to combination, combination, combination.
In this case the part selection for this combination wasnt really the best. In the case of trying to get the most out of the "tune" and using a large amount of no2 with constant varible temps and pressures effecting the no2, it makes it more difficult to repeat from run to run. The combination required so much help to get it going and it seemed to have too much reliance on O2 feedback. For the most part you are letting the O2 do all the work and at best that is an after-the-fact tuning solution. The correct converter will bring the combination closer together and your tuning more repeatable. Good luck.

I'm surprised. Out of everyone, I would have thought that you were watching my project the closest.
I am using ZERO O2 feedback control in the adjustment of my fuel table. That is why it took so long to dial in the fuel table. The fuel table is within 1% of optimum. The O2 feedback control is TURNED OFF, and has been during the whole construction of the fuel table. I have made this known at least a few times in the past. Where the heck did you get the idea I was using O2 feedback control?

People! Please don't make criticisms of what I'm doing, if you don't have the slightest idea of what the heck I'm doing! GOOD GRIEF!

 

[HighPSI]

I'm sure I'll regret posting here, but.....

Just because we saw the problem with your convertor before you did doesn't mean we have a crystal ball. Same thing with the wing not solving one of your other problems. There are a few guys trying to help you with quite a bit of experience and you prefer to do it your way. There is nothing wrong with doing it your way, just don't think that is always the "right" way.
I get the impression, the purpose of your posts isn't for help or advise but to try and teach some sort of lesson. In other words, it appears you prefer to be the "teacher" not the "student". This is probablty an incorrect impression, but I know it keeps some people from offering opinions that may benefit you.

 

[lazaris]

I'm surprised. Out of everyone, I would have thought that you were watching my project the closest.
I am using ZERO O2 feedback control in the adjustment of my fuel table. That is why it took so long to dial in the fuel table. The fuel table is within 1% of optimum. The O2 feedback control is TURNED OFF, and has been during the whole construction of the fuel table. I have made this known at least a few times in the past. Where the heck did you get the idea I was using O2 feedback control?

People! Please don't make criticisms of what I'm doing, if you don't have the slightest idea of what the heck I'm doing! GOOD GRIEF!

lol its hard to keep track, so much has transpired at some point I thought your were using o2 feedback control?? The original thought however on the combination still remains. And yes I'm always watching. hehe If I can help with the suspension tuning let me know.

 

[Alky V6]

Don, I think everybody here is trying to give you constructive advice. I don't think anybody is trying to sell converters for Dusty, they sell themselves. Anybody who has paid their dues in converter swaps knows how frustrating it can be so I think they are just trying to save you some of the same lessons they learned. I would say you have had some advice from some of the best experts here on the sites in the last couple years.

Good luck....

I'm not denying that Dusty knows his stuff and has a good product. With the reports from so many people, how could I think anything else. What bugs the heck out of me is that people would come on here acting like the expert saying, I told you that you needed a TC, which I already knew, but wasn't ready to choose specs for yet, while I was still working on the engine tune. If I'm still working on the engine tune, what was I supposed to tell the TC tech when he asked about the performance of the engine? You guys just don't get it.

When a person begins talks with a TC technician on his needs for a new TC, what do you think is the first thing that better be done before you waste that technicians time?
I'll answer that for you. You'd better have the engine tune finalized so that you can give the TC tech an idea about the performance curve of the engine.
People battering me with the comments that I needed a TC before I even had the tune on the engine finished was not helping at all. Sure, I had an idea that with the turbo change this TC wasn't going to work out, but dang it, before I wasted anyone's time, I was going to have a very good idea about the performance window of this engine/turbo/nitrous combination. I hope that's clear to people.

Anyone that has ordered a TC, have you ever seen the list of specs that are needed to provide the TC tech with an idea of the performance of the engine and the setup of the car? Judging by some of the responses, I'd think that some of you just think you walk up to a TC tech, tell him you need a TC, and he just hands you a TC. It's much more complicated than that. The decision requires a lot of thought about the engine and car combination. Much more than most of you all realize.

My particular case is very unique. It's not going to be your typical TSO, TSM, or whatever other engine combination that people are used to. And I'm sure Dusty would wholeheartedly agree with me. It will be very difficult to get right the first time, because this will be the first time any TC tech has ever dealt with a combination like this one. Believe me.

 

[Alky V6]

I'm sure I'll regret posting here, but.....

Just because we saw the problem with your convertor before you did doesn't mean we have a crystal ball. Same thing with the wing not solving one of your other problems. There are a few guys trying to help you with quite a bit of experience and you prefer to do it your way. There is nothing wrong with doing it your way, just don't think that is always the "right" way.
I get the impression, the purpose of your posts isn't for help or advise but to try and teach some sort of lesson. In other words, it appears you prefer to be the "teacher" not the "student". This is probablty an incorrect impression, but I know it keeps some people from offering opinions that may benefit you.

You're a man of experience. Let me ask you a simple question, and please answer it. If you were putting together an engine/turbo/fueling/nitrous combination that no one else had ever seen before, including yourself, would you pick out the TC specs before you optimized the tuneup?

Bison, Nick, and Dusty have all made good posts that I would consider good constructive help. And yes, some others have made posts that show they do need some basic knowledge.

 

[SGRIM]

You're a man of experience. Let me ask you a simple question, and please answer it. If you were putting together an engine/turbo/fueling/nitrous combination that no one else had ever seen before, including yourself, would you pick out the TC specs before you optimized the tuneup?

.

I would like to answer here:biggrin:

Yes, by know you should know pretty close what you need... We called up Dusty and gave him the specs and he was very close. Only did we change after making a pretty big difference...

I don't think people are trying to insult you... They are trying to help...

I don't see how you can zero in on a particular setup until you know how the new converter is going to react to the combo...

 

[S2V6RACER]

I don't see how you can zero in on a particular setup until you know how the new converter is going to react to the combo...

I agree 100%....

 

[lazaris]

I would never trust the opinion of a TC technician, or anyone else for that matter, that wasn't interested in the performance numbers on an optimized engine tune, among other details on the car FIRST.

If someone is declaring that I need a different stall TC, before I've even finalized the tuneup on the engine, just shows me how much they really know, and how much they really should leave the advice up to the experts.

Don,

I read this and it raised an interesting point. How can the Torque converter specialist trust that person doing the finalized tune up has done it correctly? The same can be said on his part.

 

[HighPSI]

You're a man of experience. Let me ask you a simple question, and please answer it. If you were putting together an engine/turbo/fueling/nitrous combination that no one else had ever seen before, including yourself, would you pick out the TC specs before you optimized the tuneup?

I would make my best educated guess, so I wouldn't have to completly retune (engine and chasis) twice. Dusty gives a free re-stall and his initial setup is going to be much closer than what you currently have. Since you're on a budget, instead of buying a convertor, why not throw the 76 back in and get that maximized. If it's a 42-76 you should be able to run mid-low 8's. I probably missed this, but what is your current ET goal?

 

[Dusty Bradford]

I would never trust the opinion of a TC technician, or anyone else for that matter, that wasn't interested in the performance numbers on an optimized engine tune, among other details on the car FIRST.

If someone is declaring that I need a different stall TC, before I've even finalized the tuneup on the engine, just shows me how much they really know, and how much they really should leave the advice up to the experts.

People were declaring your stall was wrong from the beginning because it's so far off. Anyone with any sort of experience trying to get a larger turbo spooled with a small engine can tell you it was wrong. The final tune will chage with a converter that loads the engine differently.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Now tell me how you pick a TC before you understand the performance potential of an uncommon engine combination??? I really want to read the answer to this one. Come on. Show us all how it's done.

That's easy. You trust what your converter man sends you based on their experience. In your case, it's not the performance potential, it's about the limitations you have to overcome because of the combination.

Nitrous and/or variable stall will always be a must for your combination and I know your well aware of that.