Picking a New Full Race Stall Speed

[Otto J]

I'm a transmission tech! Did you know that?! I understand the matching of TCs more than you

I do know that,I guesss you did not know that I have been building racing transmissions since 1986 so I am no novice to matching convertors to combos and by no means a novice to tuning combos either. One thing my exp has taught me was if I knew the convertor was not doing the job I addressed it, I did not try to mask it.
Go on with your project.....

 

[baadgn]

Compression, cam specs and cubes. That's it. You're kidding with me, right?

Otto, Otto, Otto. Leave the TC specing to the experts.

We did leave it to the experts and what happen ? we set records all over the buick community. Just imagine if we were tuned so perfectly like you proclaim you are. But their is something that still bothers me, if our tuning is sloppy and we just throw in any TC with no knowledge of what the engine needs. Than how is it that we break records and you with your vast knowledge and tuning experience struggle to do less with more hmmm. Don leave your teaching for mirror none of the crickects are impressed.


P.s yes the turbo is STILL too BIG and....its a slug 28# boost 154 mph

 

[Alky V6]

"Sure, after the fact, it's very easy to say that. But, when you first see an unexplainable lean spike on the datalog, you're not really concerned in the least with the stall speed of the TC. You want to get to the bottom of the lean spike so that you don't possibly ruin an expensive engine. I would hope others would feel the same."

You very possibly could have experienced exactly the same scenario with the proper converter, or a rich spike for that matter. The point is your tune would still have to be adjusted either way.

When I first saw the lean spike, I wanted there and then to completely understand what I was seeing.

You just stated, I very possibly could have experienced exactly the same scenario with the proper converter. If you were sure, you would have stated, you would have definitely experienced exactly the same scenario with the proper converter.

Are you admitting that you're not sure whether a TC change might have upset the condition I was seeing, and maybe I wouldn't get the chance to figure out what I was seeing?

Again, I ask you, how do you PROPERLY MATCH a TC to an engine before you completely understand that engine???

 

[Otto J]

Again, I ask you, how do you PROPERLY MATCH a TC to an engine before you completely understand that engine???

How does one order a torque convertor for a new combo when the combo has not even run yet?
By your thoughts ordering one before actually having a tuned motor is not really possible.

 

[Alky V6]

I do know that,I guesss you did not know that I have been building racing transmissions since 1986 so I am no novice to matching convertors to combos and by no means a novice to tuning combos either. One thing my exp has taught me was if I knew the convertor was not doing the job I addressed it, I did not try to mask it.
Go on with your project.....

I've been a trans tech since 1981, so out of everyone you should understand my frustration when some kook kept barking at me that I needed a different TC. I was using the lower stalled TC as a tool to work on my fueling table. I was going to be ready to look at the TC when I was done tuning in the engine. Not before then, or when someone that knew absolutely nothing about what I was doing was nagging me to.

Explain masking, because again you're showing that you know absolutely nothing about what I am doing.

 

[lazaris]

"You just stated, I very possibly could have experienced exactly the same scenario with the proper converter. If you were sure, you would have stated, you would have definitely experienced exactly the same scenario with the proper converter."

No I couldnt have definetly, because you kept introducing varying tuning conditions by incorrectly managing bottle pressures amongst other things!!!!

"Are you admitting that you're not sure whether a TC change might have upset the condition I was seeing, and maybe I wouldn't get the chance to figure out what I was seeing?"

Absolutley!! See above. Either way again no matter the TC you would have had to tune your issues, very simple.

"Again, I ask you, how do you PROPERLY MATCH a TC to an engine before you completely understand that engine???"

Now this might be a hard one......TALK TO THE TC PROFESSIONAL. They "understand" more than you think.....

 

[John Wilde]

Does anyone moderate this section?

 

[lazaris]

"I was using the lower stalled TC as a tool to work on my fueling table. I was going to be ready to look at the TC when I was done tuning in the engine."

No no no no. You said you were going to show how "nitrous assist" will make that converter work WITHOUT having to change the current TC. Please Please go back and re read what you posted.

 

[Alky V6]

We did leave it to the experts and what happen ? we set records all over the buick community. Just imagine if we were tuned so perfectly like you proclaim you are. But their is something that still bothers me, if our tuning is sloppy and we just throw in any TC with no knowledge of what the engine needs. Than how is it that we break records and you with your vast knowledge and tuning experience struggle to do less with more hmmm. Don leave your teaching for mirror none of the crickects are impressed.


P.s yes the turbo is STILL too BIG and....its a slug 28# boost 154 mph

It's easy to setup a TC combination for an engine combination that you see over and over again. You do it once, and if you're seeing the same combination with the next engine, you go to your records and make a copy. That's how it's done. It's not as hard as you think. That's why TC techs are a little thrown off when they see a combination they've never seen before. They then make an educated guess and see what happens.

P.S. It was only 28 because of fueling, but mainly traction. I agree with you, it's a slug. :biggrin:

 

[Alky V6]

How does one order a torque convertor for a new combo when the combo has not even run yet?
By your thoughts ordering one before actually having a tuned motor is not really possible.

If the TC tech understands a small cubed Buick engine on methanol and how nitrous/methanol works with that engine, then I would have to say that the tech might be able to match a TC to that engine.

How many TC techs do you know that are familiar with that kind of engine combination? Are you? I surely wasn't. Not until I had a chance to tune one in.

 

[Alky V6]

"You just stated, I very possibly could have experienced exactly the same scenario with the proper converter. If you were sure, you would have stated, you would have definitely experienced exactly the same scenario with the proper converter."

No I couldnt have definetly, because you kept introducing varying tuning conditions by incorrectly managing bottle pressures amongst other things!!!!

"Are you admitting that you're not sure whether a TC change might have upset the condition I was seeing, and maybe I wouldn't get the chance to figure out what I was seeing?"

Absolutley!! See above. Either way again no matter the TC you would have had to tune your issues, very simple.

"Again, I ask you, how do you PROPERLY MATCH a TC to an engine before you completely understand that engine???"

Now this might be a hard one......TALK TO THE TC PROFESSIONAL. They "understand" more than you think.....

Improperly managing bottle pressure. How's that?

I lost you on the tuning somewhere. If you have any questions, I'm happy to make it clear to you. Please, let's discuss the 'other things'.

You can dial in more of the fuel table with a low stall TC, than with a high stall TC. Take my word for it.
If you go straight to a high stall TC, you will miss the opportunity to tune in much of the low to mid rpm, high map region. If you're racing with a high stall, and all that is needed is WOT performance, then you won't need to dial in that region of the fuel map anyway. It would be a waste of time. But,... the fuel map will be sloppy. Tuning in a fuel table with a high stall TC, and consideration only for WOT use is a cake walk.
If you dial in the fuel map with a low stall TC, switching to a high stall is a breeze. It took me one pass to find 2 or 3 cells that needed 1 and 2 percent correction. Fuel table is DONE!

As I've already stated, I've talked with 3 TC professionals throughout this project, including Dusty awhile back, and they all had the same reaction. But curiously, everyone else seems to think they know more than them.

 

[baadgn]

"I was using the lower stalled TC as a tool to work on my fueling table. I was going to be ready to look at the TC when I was done tuning in the engine.

No no no no. You said you were going to show how "nitrous assist" will make that converter work WITHOUT having to change the current TC. Please Please go back and re read what you posted.

Oh Boy can't deny that one Don, YOU were GOING to SHOW US how to skin that cat but once again you were wrong, Why you ask ? well you threw a s**t load of nitrous at it, and you couldnt get it to come around. We all Knew you would not be able to get it to work, last year without ever having a Methonal/nitrous engine imagine that !! Again you disappointed the crickets.


P.s if you cant hook that turbo at the power level your at now, dont't ever put a smaller efficient turbo on it. One thing we don't want too see is you get hurt

 

[Alky V6]

"I was using the lower stalled TC as a tool to work on my fueling table. I was going to be ready to look at the TC when I was done tuning in the engine."

No no no no. You said you were going to show how "nitrous assist" will make that converter work WITHOUT having to change the current TC. Please Please go back and re read what you posted.

Where did I post that? Was it while I was still tuning in the engine/nitrous?

 

[lazaris]

Improperly managing bottle pressure. How's that?

I lost you on the tuning somewhere. If you have any questions, I'm happy to make it clear to you. Please, let's discuss the 'other things'.

You can dial in more of the fuel table with a low stall TC, than with a high stall TC. Take my word for it.
If you go straight to a high stall TC, you will miss the opportunity to tune in much of the low to mid rpm, high map region. If you're racing with a high stall, and all that is needed is WOT performance, then you won't need to dial in that region of the fuel map anyway. It would be a waste of time. But,... the fuel map will be sloppy. Tuning in a fuel table with a high stall TC, and consideration only for WOT use is a cake walk.
If you dial in the fuel map with a low stall TC, switching to a high stall is a breeze. It took me one pass to find 2 or 3 cells that needed 1 and 2 percent correction. Fuel table is DONE!

As I've already stated, I've talked with 3 TC professionals throughout this project, including Dusty awhile back, and they all had the same reaction.

Round and round we go where it stops no one knows.

 

[lazaris]

Where did I post that? Was it while I was still tuning in the engine/nitrous?

You posted it in your post. lol

 

[Alky V6]

Oh Boy can't deny that one Don, YOU were GOING to SHOW US how to skin that cat but once again you were wrong, Why you ask ? well you threw a s**t load of nitrous at it, and you couldnt get it to come around. We all Knew you would not be able to get it to work, last year without ever having a Methonal/nitrous engine imagine that !! Again you disappointed the crickets.


P.s if you cant hook that turbo at the power level your at now, dont't ever put a smaller efficient turbo on it. One thing we don't want too see is you get hurt

You're right. There was a time where I thought I might be able to squeak out a performance that I would be happy with, but I hit a wall with the tuneup, it just wasn't going to get any better. I realized that it was finally time to shop for a different TC. And yes, I decided when it was time to change it. I'm sure the expert that you are, you knew exactly when I was going to hit that wall with my combination, didn't you? You're so smart. I should have listened to you.
I'm sorry you're so upset that I didn't take your advice earlier on. I didn't expect you to react like this. You must really be pissed off. Do you have anymore advice? I'm eager to learn from the Pro. How do you think I should handle my fuel supply problem? How about my traction problem.

 

[Alky V6]

You posted it in your post. lol

You're having as much fun as I am, aren't you? :biggrin:

 

[Chevota]

Don, I may have missed it in the numerous pages of posts but have you ever considered a few hours of dyno time? I can usually get a new combo very close within a short time without the time and expense of track outings. I'm going again in within the next couple of weeks with the new motor. Lemme know if you wanna join.

scott wile

 

[HighPSI]

I couldn't agree more. One session on the dyno can save several trips to the race track. The dyno would even allow you to load the car in areas that most novice tuners would ignore. You can also tune areas that your chasis hasn't allowed you to reach (i.e. high boost) I would be very interested to see how much hp this car put down, no more calculators, no more simulators.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Don, if I'm reading your major plan right, you are attempting to build a extremely efficient engine using NOS to spool, with hopes it works better than anything ever done by the cookie cutter guys (comparisons sake).

Now, did you pick your CI by running the numbers through the calculator, or was that just made out of the parts you had laying around?

I have had 3 different converters in my car, the tuneup did not change much between a looser and tighter converter. I'm going to say that just because a converter is "looser" doesn't mean it's looser beyond the stall rate. From the description of the tuning you did with the tight converter, that should have been a hour (if that) project getting that tuned out. You chose the NOS to try and work around it and that is fine, and I can see that taking some tuning work, but it didn't work to fix the converter issue.

I see you are planning a S2 headed stroker project. Are you spending this much time with your current combo to learn tuning and other things, or do you think there will come a point you will just step up to more cubes and better heads (that will also help) before you put too much time into a converter that might not work (well) with your new combo?

If your goal is to run 8.50's at 158 I think you have enough to get there right now though...