Sorry 60lb inj question

[The_Six]

I have been thinking of running e-85 my car has a Hot wired 340 60lb inj ,translator pro and stock turbo, I have been thinking of upgrading to a TE44 or TE60 turbo. I dont plan on going faster then mid 11s . Do you guys think Ill be ok with just a new chip or will I need to go up to 80s and posably a duble pumper. Reason being I was going to make an alky kit my next mod but if I can keep my current set up and run e85 I will get a new turbo and not the alky.
Thanks

 

[BEATAV8]

You'll have to run the 60's to 100%, and adding methanol injection on top of the E85 would be a good idea. It works great that way. Super easy to tune compared to gas/meth. The single 340 seems to be capable of fully supportiing 60's, but with 80's you need to be careful and can't run the duty cycle much past 75% without risking maxing out the pump.

I run a TA49 to 26.x psi with a 360lb/hr E85 fuel rate and SMC single nozzle to back it up. Pushing that turbo harder would start to yield diminishing returns. The 44 and 60 would be a little more capable.

I've run it quite a bit leaner than what you see here and it still does not knock, but I prefer to keep it richer. It was showing no KR even with only 730mv on the narrowband.

 

[GNWANTED]

I have been thinking of running e-85 my car has a Hot wired 340 60lb inj ,translator pro and stock turbo, I have been thinking of upgrading to a TE44 or TE60 turbo. I dont plan on going faster then mid 11s . Do you guys think Ill be ok with just a new chip or will I need to go up to 80s and posably a duble pumper. Reason being I was going to make an alky kit my next mod but if I can keep my current set up and run e85 I will get a new turbo and not the alky.
Thanks

I just made the switch about 2 weeks ago so far pretty good results, no knock on a few WOT passes, seems to run smooth. I have 60's ,TE60, hot wired 340 & E85 TT chip. I have been pushing close to 22/23psi no knock 780-810 o2's on scanmaster. Powelogger is on the way so I can get more data. I am looking for 11's as well on this set up and should be able to get it no problem with the 60's First time to the track last year and was getting low 12's on gas+alky with only 20/21 psi. Hope this helps!

 

[The_Six]

Thanks guys I may try to sell my 60s and get the 80s but Its nice to know the 60s will work. I say I would like mid 11s but I have a lot to do before I go 11s my rear suspention is all stock so I need to work on that to get the 60fts down some.

 

[87GN_70GS]

You're going to be on the ragged edge for safety margin with 60# inj at 100% dc and a single 340 (or 0169). I would predict a few psi fuel pressure drop under those conditions.

 

[Heg87t]

At What PSI?

You're going to be on the ragged edge for safety margin with 60# inj at 100% dc and a single 340 (or 0169). I would predict a few psi fuel pressure drop under those conditions.

What boost level are you talking about here? I am planning 60#'s, single hot wired 340, stock turbo and 20# boost. Do you think that is ragged edge or near 100% DC?

 

[87GN_70GS]

What boost level are you talking about here? I am planning 60#'s, single hot wired 340, stock turbo and 20# boost. Do you think that is ragged edge or near 100% DC?

If you look at the following chart:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/ge...h/280343-fulep-pump-injector-cheat-sheet.html

And inspect the point where the "340 13.5v" pump curve and the "60# 20 psi" injector curves cross, you'll see they cross at approx 64 psi. So if you set your base fuel at 45 psi and try to run 20 psi boost, you'll be 1 psi short of the 65 psi total. Also keep in mind that these are ideal curves from laboratory controlled conditions, i.e. no losses due to fuel lines, heat, voltage drops, etc. So your actual shortfall may be even 2 or 3 psi or ??

Now your saving grace may be that you might not have to run exactly 100% dc (which is what the inj curves are based on). So if you can get by with say 95-96% dc, you may be ok and your rail psi wil track just fine with boost. So you won't have a whole bunch of margin, but maybe just enough.

 

[The_Six]

Ok I think Ill look in to a double pumper and the 80s.

 

[GNWANTED]

Every car is different, every gauge reads different. As soon as I get my powerlogger I will post my duty cycle.

 

[BEATAV8]

Fortunately, as the pressure drops, the flow volume increases. Assuming the pump is good.

 

[RobS]

87gn 70gs,
Beatav8 is running a single walbro pump, 80 lb injectors, and 26 psi. It would seem that he would be out of pump at 22-24 psi. The charts are flow with gasoline. Is it possible e85 has a lower viscosity allowing him to run 26 psi? I think everyone agrees 80's at 100% DC would overwhelm a single walbro, but it appears lots of people on this board are going father with the walbro than I would expect.


Edit He is running an SMC single nozzle. That must allow him to run 26psi.

 

[BEATAV8]

87gn 70gs,
Beatav8 is running a single walbro pump, 80 lb injectors, and 26 psi. It would seem that he would be out of pump at 22-24 psi. The charts are flow with gasoline. Is it possible e85 has a lower viscosity allowing him to run 26 psi? I think everyone agrees 80's at 100% DC would overwhelm a single walbro, but it appears lots of people on this board are going father with the walbro than I would expect.


Edit He is running an SMC single nozzle. That must allow him to run 26psi.

The SMC helps, but I'm not using very much methanol. A WOT run doesn't put much of a dent in the fluid level. Maybe 20 oz or so.

I can say that I still have good control over my fuel rate. If I add or subtract fuel (inj duty) the engine does respond.

 

[87GN_70GS]

87gn 70gs,
Beatav8 is running a single walbro pump, 80 lb injectors, and 26 psi. It would seem that he would be out of pump at 22-24 psi. The charts are flow with gasoline. Is it possible e85 has a lower viscosity allowing him to run 26 psi? I think everyone agrees 80's at 100% DC would overwhelm a single walbro, but it appears lots of people on this board are going father with the walbro than I would expect.


Edit He is running an SMC single nozzle. That must allow him to run 26psi.

I thought he said he was running 60's? But anyway, yes I would agree that 80's at 100% dc on a single 340 (or 0169) are too much for the pump on gas alone (w/o alky).

 

[BEATAV8]

I thought he said he was running 60's? But anyway, yes I would agree that 80's at 100% dc on a single 340 (or 0169) are too much for the pump on gas alone (w/o alky).

I'm running 80's limited to 75% DC max.

The big injectors are great, leave a little room for future expansion. Just limit the duty cycle since the pump could get maxed out. At 75% it's got to be close to the ragged edge.

 

[87GN_70GS]

87gn 70gs,
Beatav8 is running a single walbro pump, 80 lb injectors, and 26 psi. It would seem that he would be out of pump at 22-24 psi. The charts are flow with gasoline. Is it possible e85 has a lower viscosity allowing him to run 26 psi? I think everyone agrees 80's at 100% DC would overwhelm a single walbro, but it appears lots of people on this board are going father with the walbro than I would expect.


Edit He is running an SMC single nozzle. That must allow him to run 26psi.

This chart was done with corrections made for the density of E85:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/e85-technical-forum/280408-fuel-pump-injector-flow-graphs.html

The density of E85 is slightly different from gasoline but not much.

 

[87GN_70GS]

Fortunately, as the pressure drops, the flow volume increases. Assuming the pump is good.

For the pump yes.

But for the injectors, as pressure drops, so does volume.

 

[87GN_70GS]

I'm running 80's limited to 75% DC max.

The big injectors are great, leave a little room for future expansion. Just limit the duty cycle since the pump could get maxed out. At 75% it's got to be close to the ragged edge.

80's at 75% dc is roughly equivalent to 60's at 100% dc (give or take, but close enough).

 

[RobS]

87gn 70gs, You may have answered this before, are 80's at 100% dc are too much for a bosch 044? What about 80's at 100% dc and a walbro 340 + bosch044?

 

[The_Six]

Ok guys after reading on fuel pumps I think IM going to get the 80s run my my in tank W340 for now and see how it goes. If the 340 dosnt keep up if I have read correctly I can add an external pump after the internal pump this should be a lot cheaper and easier then droping my tank to add a in tank dubble pumper set up. If I do need an external pump what would be a good one to use?

 

[BEATAV8]

For the pump yes.

But for the injectors, as pressure drops, so does volume.

that's true if the injectors are being held a constant duty cycle and acting as a restriction. In this case, the reason for fuel pressure loss is because the injectors are opening more and more, opening for so much time that they become less of a restriction in the system. Less restriction = more flow.

from a system point of view, as the injectors open more and more then fuel flow will continue to increase until the fuel pressure is very close to the boost pressure.

Just like a garden hose with a nozzle...