Stand Alone Traction Control Module

[HighPSI]

I agree, Dusty. TC should be used more as a fine tuning tool. Not a crutch because someone didn't bother to build a proper boost control curve.

Or doesn't have their chasis tuned correctly

 

[Alky V6]

Or doesn't have their chasis tuned correctly

But, just imagine how great a tool TC would be in tuning in the chassis.
One run you see a certain amount of TC retard at a certain point in the track. You decide to make a chassis change. The next time out you see a little less TC retard in that same spot in the run. That's telling you the chassis change worked.

The amount of TC retard in the datalog can show a person where in the run the chassis or tuneup is in need of a change.

Imagine making a tuneup or chassis change and the result is a massive amount of TC retard at a particular point in the run. That's telling you the change you made was a bad one. Also, you were able to find that out without risking having the car get out of shape and slapping a wall, or another driver. That sounds like a great tuning tool to me. Instead of depending on the seat of the pants feel of the car getting loose on you and the datalog confirming it, you can safely make a pass and let the datalog tell you whether the change you made to tuneup or chassis was a good one or a bad one.

 

[Alky V6]

The opposite of that is also true. The lack of TC retard in a particular point(s) in the run will show the tuner where in the run there is the possibility of turning the wick up a little. If there is the absence of TC retard on the top end, then heck, let's throw a little more boost at it to see if she'll take it. Keep throwing more boost at it a little at a time until you start seeing the TC retard coming in, then you know your done at that point unless you think a chassis tune might allow even more. You make a chassis tune, and it does help on the top end, but you start seeing more TC retard on the low end. Now it's a balancing act, but it's all done very safely.

 

[lazaris]

Thats all well and good if you raced in a vacuum. With track conditions changing constantly along with the change in weather conditions through out the day, your tuning point adjustments will not stay the same. However, going back to original element of TC it can help save a run that otherwise would not have gotten down the track.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

That's what the g-meter and driveshaft data is used for. You can clearly see at what point in the pass you can apply or need more power. Kind of like that boost controller that is tied to a g-meter to keep pouring on the power to maintain acceleration.

When I ran the XFI tc it was simply a tool to judge the next tune-up by. I sorted out the chassis with the tc off. Then if I made a pass and had 8 degrees of retard at .8 into the run with a track temp of 112, the next pass the track temp was 130, I'd pull some power out of it.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Thats all well and good if you raced in a vacuum. With track conditions changing constantly along with the change in weather conditions through out the day, your tuning point adjustments will not stay the same. However, going back to original element of TC it can help save a run that otherwise would not have gotten down the track.

Exactly, track conditions throughout the day are always changing and have to be accounted for when making changes for the next pass.

That's what I found the tc helpful for. Not as a tuning tool but as something that would get me down the track if I mis-read the conditions. Eventually I got used to the slew control in the 7531 and totally abandoned the tc.

 

[Alky V6]

Thats all well and good if you raced in a vacuum. With track conditions changing constantly along with the change in weather conditions through out the day, your tuning point adjustments will not stay the same. However, going back to original element of TC it can help save a run that otherwise would not have gotten down the track.

That would be most true when everything had been tuned to the edge.

 

[Alky V6]

That's what the g-meter and driveshaft data is used for. You can clearly see at what point in the pass you can apply or need more power. Kind of like that boost controller that is tied to a g-meter to keep pouring on the power to maintain acceleration.

When I ran the XFI tc it was simply a tool to judge the next tune-up by. I sorted out the chassis with the tc off. Then if I made a pass and had 8 degrees of retard at .8 into the run with a track temp of 112, the next pass the track temp was 130, I'd pull some power out of it.

What sort of degree of power would a person have to pull to make up for your example of the changes in track temp?

 

[Alky V6]

Exactly, track conditions throughout the day are always changing and have to be accounted for when making changes for the next pass.

That's what I found the tc helpful for. Not as a tuning tool but as something that would get me down the track if I mis-read the conditions. Eventually I got used to the slew control in the 7531 and totally abandoned the tc.

How does the slew control work?

 

[lazaris]

That would be most true when everything had been tuned to the edge.

Not really.

 

[Alky V6]

For an inexperienced driver/tuner that isn't used to having a car that is tuned to the edge and having different track conditions affect the car in certain ways, wouldn't TC be a good way for a person to learn how different conditions are affecting his car? Would it be a safer way?

 

[Dusty Bradford]

What sort of degree of power would a person have to pull to make up for your example of the changes in track temp?

Depends where on the track it was spinning. Right after the hit, 200 rpm lower on the launch will catch it. If your timing has ramped down the 28-30 degrees at the point of tire spin, 6-8 degrees would be enough. Or if your timing was down to 16-18, just 2 more could do the trick. If using boost to limit power 2-3psi lower on the AMS will do it.

 

[Alky V6]

Not really.

I can understand that. The last time out at Firebird I had to pull quite a bit out of the tuneup to get the car to launch. I can see where track conditions can make a big difference.
For a person that isn't used to adjusting his car for certain conditions, wouldn't TC help get down the track more consistently say if the adjustment (guess) made was not in the range?

 

[Alky V6]

Depends where on the track it was spinning. Right after the hit, 200 rpm lower on the launch will catch it. If your timing has ramped down the 28-30 degrees at the point of tire spin, 6-8 degrees would be enough. Or if your timing was down to 16-18, just 2 more could do the trick. If using boost to limit power 2-3psi lower on the AMS will do it.

2-3 less boost at the launch was what I had to do at Firebird. Very interesting. Thanks for the insight, Dusty.

 

[Alky V6]

In a situation where a person that is inexperienced at making a perfect tuning change for conditions at a new track, and you only have two testing or qualifying runs, wouldn't TC be valuable to have to make up for the certainty that the inexperienced tuner would not be getting the tuneup change right on for the conditions? Wouldn't the car perform better with the help of TC in a situation like that?

As an example, when I went to Firebird, I was given two test runs and two qualifying runs. The first pass was good. The next two were bust because of track conditions. I consider myself very lucky that by the last qualifying run I was able to make adjustments that got the car down the track with a great time, but I was far from confident that the run was going to turn out that way. I get the feeling TC would really be a help in a situation like that where a newbie at adjusting for track conditions could at least get the car down the track when the situation gets tense.

 

[lazaris]

For an inexperienced driver/tuner that isn't used to having a car that is tuned to the edge and having different track conditions affect the car in certain ways, wouldn't TC be a good way for a person to learn how different conditions are affecting his car? Would it be a safer way?

For an inexperienced driver/tuner, video tape of the pass would be just as good , and a more economical way to learn....

 

[Dusty Bradford]

How does the slew control work?

Slew control is rpm control. It drops cylinders to maintain the programmed rpm curve. I found the car was faster by keeping the chassis loaded rather than waiting for tire spin. Of course I race on a radial, once it spins you have to pull ALOT of power to get it to recover. So basically once you see tire spin it's nearly to late.

By programming in a rpm curve I can easily use timing retard/rpm as well as boost to get the rpm to the allowed run curve. If the rpm gets too high it will drop a cylinder to maintain the rpm yet the wheelspeed doesn't drop like a rock. The downside is you still have to tune the car to the conditions and you can't just set an rpm limit and ride it for 3 seconds. When dropping a cylinder it can load up on fuel and backfire through the intake. I usually just want to touch the "dots" of the programmed line for less than 1 second. The next rounds tune-up is very easy and predictable, lower the rpm line 200-300 in the slick spot and your good to go. The timing curve can then be modified at that same point of the run to keep it from banging on the limiter.

I saved each rpm curve as a tune-up. I had a 4.96, 5.01, 5.04, 5.08 and a 5.15 tune-up saved. I could load any of them in the MSD box and the car would run dead on or within .02 of the desired et while rarely touching the boost control.

Once I got the hang of it, the car was much more consistent and predictable, we started winning races.

With my new motor, all those old tunes are way out in left field. I'm back to chasing the chassis.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

In a situation where a person that is inexperienced at making a perfect tuning change for conditions at a new track, and you only have two testing or qualifying runs, wouldn't TC be valuable to have to make up for the certainty that the inexperienced tuner would not be getting the tuneup change right on for the conditions? Wouldn't the car perform better with the help of TC in a situation like that?

As an example, when I went to Firebird, I was given two test runs and two qualifying runs. The first pass was good. The next two were bust because of track conditions. I consider myself very lucky that by the last qualifying run I was able to make adjustments that got the car down the track with a great time, but I was far from confident that the run was going to turn out that way. I get the feeling TC would really be a help in a situation like that where a newbie at adjusting for track conditions could at least get the car down the track when the situation gets tense.

If by saying performing better, your meaning saving a would-be busted pass.....I'd say yes.

It can stop and control tire spin but the car won't run a personal best. If your capable of running 8.60's all out and a spin fest nets you a 9.40....tc may get you an 8.90 for example.

 

[Alky V6]

For an inexperienced driver/tuner, video tape of the pass would be just as good , and a more economical way to learn....

Maybe, If you could count on the person taking the video to do a good enough job to catch the whole run with good detail. But then, how does a person with a video camera help you out if a car were to get away from you?

 

[Alky V6]

Slew control is rpm control. It drops cylinders to maintain the programmed rpm curve. I found the car was faster by keeping the chassis loaded rather than waiting for tire spin. Of course I race on a radial, once it spins you have to pull ALOT of power to get it to recover. So basically once you see tire spin it's nearly to late.

By programming in a rpm curve I can easily use timing retard/rpm as well as boost to get the rpm to the allowed run curve. If the rpm gets too high it will drop a cylinder to maintain the rpm yet the wheelspeed doesn't drop like a rock. The downside is you still have to tune the car to the conditions and you can't just set an rpm limit and ride it for 3 seconds. When dropping a cylinder it can load up on fuel and backfire through the intake. I usually just want to touch the "dots" of the programmed line for less than 1 second. The next rounds tune-up is very easy and predictable, lower the rpm line 200-300 in the slick spot and your good to go. The timing curve can then be modified at that same point of the run to keep it from banging on the limiter.

I saved each rpm curve as a tune-up. I had a 4.96, 5.01, 5.04, 5.08 and a 5.15 tune-up saved. I could load any of them in the MSD box and the car would run dead on or within .02 of the desired et while rarely touching the boost control.

Once I got the hang of it, the car was much more consistent and predictable, we started winning races.

With my new motor, all those old tunes are way out in left field. I'm back to chasing the chassis.

I take it you're comparing this system to a TC system you have tried. Which TC system were you using that gave less than satisfactory results? EDIT: Never mind. I went back and saw.

The slew system is an open loop situation then. No feedback control. You either get the change in the pits right, or you're done. So there is a learning curve involved to come up with these particular tunes. It's not something that will adjust for changing conditions when actually making the run. Similar to the AMS1000 not being a feedback system. After the run, not during the run, changes are made according to changes that may have occurred during the past run.