Starting T-Type After LONG Term Storage

[Lil Truck]

Well... I think I may have found the culprit. If true, I just probably did a whole lot of work for nothing. I was inspecting the heads and head gaskets, but nothing looked out of the ordinary.

Then I looked over at the old intake manifold gasket sitting nearby, and noticed two things: 1) At the circled area there is a break in the coolant channel next to #2. I could have done this when I took it out, but the rest of the gasket feels pretty sturdy - so doubtful. 2) There is also an odd "blow out" looking area at the arrow, and it looks like the gasket sealer in that area has been eaten away over time.

Thoughts? I can see how this could contaminate the oil, right?

Intake_Gasket

• 87_TX_T-Type
• Feb 27, 2017

Here are the heads, and the block on the driver's side.

P_Side_Head

• 87_TX_T-Type
• Feb 27, 2017

D_Side_Head

• 87_TX_T-Type
• Feb 27, 2017

Circled area is where it looks like the carbon is flaking off, which is also where the spark plug was "steam" cleaned.

D-Side_Block

• 87_TX_T-Type
• Feb 27, 2017

So if I assume that the intake gasket was leaking coolant into the oil... how does this lead to a misfire or only #5 getting steam cleaned? (Or are they even related?)

#1 looks more steam cleaned than #5? The break in the intake gasket would have leaked out the top edge of the intake at the same area as the break. It's possible an intake gasket leak would contaminate the oil and cause the corrosion in the valley of the gasket. The only way it would get to the cylinders is through the intake valve ports. A crack is a possible cause of your problem.

 

[87_TX_T-Type]

#1 looks more steam cleaned than #5? The break in the intake gasket would have leaked out the top edge of the intake at the same area as the break. It's possible an intake gasket leak would contaminate the oil and cause the corrosion in the valley of the gasket. The only way it would get to the cylinders is through the intake valve ports. A crack is a possible cause of your problem.

Just to be clear, by intake valve port you are referring to the head or part of the intake runner? The heads look good - but then again I did overlook the break in that gasket...

Let me throw this out there... the gasket is corroded... could the coolant leak also possibly be sucked in between where the head mates to the intake? Hence "steaming" multiple cylinders, but also leaking down into the valley. Might be describing the same thing you are.

 

[Lil Truck]

Just to be clear, by intake valve port you are referring to the head or part of the intake runner? The heads look good - but then again I did overlook the break in that gasket...

Let me throw this out there... the gasket is corroded... could the coolant leak also possibly be sucked in between where the head mates to the intake? Hence "steaming" multiple cylinders, but also leaking down into the valley. Might be describing the same thing you are.

It would be where the intake gasket seals around the head intake runners, I don't expect that was your problem.

Can you show on a photo where you found the hard deposits when you removed the intake?

A mild head gasket failure will look like scratch marks extending out from the cylinder. Like a small wire brush Mark.

 

[87_TX_T-Type]

Can you show on a photo where you found the hard deposits when you removed the intake?

To the best of my recollection the deposit was just sitting on top of the gasket approximately where the arrow is pointing in the picture. I could not tell you if it originated from there or simply fell down there when taking the intake off.

 

[t-typinator]

Have you flipped the intake over and looked closely at it for anything unusual like cracks or signs of leaking etc.

 

[87_TX_T-Type]

it looks like the valve seat/seats on #3 are cracked between the valves and then there is that huge gouge or crack in that same seat , I'm thinking those cracks(if they are cracks) probably don't go into the water jacket but they definetly don't look good.

If we are looking in the same places, I think what you are seeing are the edges of the carbon plaque that has chipped off. Here is a close up of #3 after being hit with some degreaser and nylon brush. Let me know if you are referring to something different.

No3

• 87_TX_T-Type
• Feb 28, 2017

Here are pics of the mating surfaces of the intakes... not pretty.

D_Side_Intake

• 87_TX_T-Type
• Feb 28, 2017

20170228_135426_resized

• 87_TX_T-Type
• Feb 28, 2017

I think the intake gasket was on it's last leg given the amount of sediment in the pictures. When I hit it with the cleaners a couple of weeks ago and then added a little heat from a running engine - it just finally sh1t the bed and started leaking coolant into the valley. Luckily I didn't run it very long at all.

 

[87_TX_T-Type]

Pulled the oil pan... The oil pump screen is not too bad all things considered. (The redish stuff is actually lint from my cheap Harbor Freight rags - so no more of those.)

Oil_P_Intake

• 87_TX_T-Type
• Feb 28, 2017

Oil pan had the requisite sludge given the idiotic plug design. There does look to be a bit of that flaky graphite-like material that comes from gaskets, but I can't determine if it didn't just fall in during the removal of the heads.

 

[t-typinator]

If we are looking in the same places, I think what you are seeing are the edges of the carbon plaque that has chipped off. Here is a close up of #3 after being hit with some degreaser and nylon brush. Let me know if you are referring to something different.

No3

• 87_TX_T-Type
• Feb 28, 2017

Here are pics of the mating surfaces of the intakes... not pretty.

D_Side_Intake

• 87_TX_T-Type
• Feb 28, 2017

20170228_135426_resized

• 87_TX_T-Type
• Feb 28, 2017

I think the intake gasket was on it's last leg given the amount of sediment in the pictures. When I hit it with the cleaners a couple of weeks ago and then added a little heat from a running engine - it just finally sh1t the bed and started leaking coolant into the valley. Luckily I didn't run it very long at all.

Yup, it was just the edge of carbon that looked like it might have been a crack and that thing that looked like a big gouge is gone.

 

[87_TX_T-Type]

Have you cleaned up the deck and checked it for cracks around the headbolt holes yet.?

I was unable to find any cracks. Heads were dropped off at Kim Barr Racing. He is going to resurface,clean, and bench test them. I told him the situation, and he said would inspect them thoroughly. In the meantime, I have a lot of cleaning to do before everything goes back together.

 

[t-typinator]

I was unable to find any cracks. Heads were dropped off at Kim Barr Racing. He is going to resurface,clean, and bench test them. I told him the situation, and he said would inspect them thoroughly. In the meantime, I have a lot of cleaning to do before everything goes back together.

.

 

[87_TX_T-Type]

Headbolts did have thread sealer, so we're good there.

Right now I think the issue was the valley pan gasket. It was sealed, but on its way out before I started the car - hence all the sediment/build up around the channels.

Cleaning the intake ate away some of the built-up crap that was essentially keeping the seal secure, then running the car (however briefly) added just enough heat and vibration to break that seal in places. Maybe even caused that small blow out.

Coolant then leaked down into the valley then pan creating the oil contamination. Some of it may been sucked up into the intake runner causing #5 plug to be steam cleaned. (It was dry when I pulled it to answer your question.) Or maybe the #5 terminal on the coil pack is bad. (I doubt this since the misfire was inconsistent, but I found two more coil packs in storage so I can always switch them out later.)

Again - I'm speculating, and welcome any other theories. The good thing is that I have a pro looking at the heads, and hopefully he can give them a good bill of health so I can cross that off the list.

 

[Gene Van Horn]

I really think you avoiding the inevitable, pull the motor and do a total tear down. Then get a reputable grand national shop to rebuild your engine. It's possible that its just the intake gasket but why chance it. Hell your most of the way there now. I know this from experience, half fixes and wishful thinking almost always turn out badly. I realize doing this is costly and time consuming but I think you will be way better off in the long run. Good luck, hope it all goes well.

 

[Lil Truck]

It is a good possibility that the intake was leaking water into the valley. I don't see anything from the photos causing #5 plug to be white? Before you put it back together I suggest you pull each lifter out one at a time and inspect the surface for pitting or irregular wear. How many miles are on the motor?

 

[87_TX_T-Type]

I really think you avoiding the inevitable, pull the motor and do a total tear down. Then get a reputable grand national shop to rebuild your engine. It's possible that its just the intake gasket but why chance it. Hell your most of the way there now. I know this from experience, half fixes and wishful thinking almost always turn out badly. I realize doing this is costly and time consuming but I think you will be way better off in the long run. Good luck, hope it all goes well.

Is there something being overlooked?

I already tried to give one RT expert my money. He almost flat out refused, and said, "Looks like you got this." The heads are at another experienced engine builder, and he called me today to say they look remarkably good (no leaks/cracks).

The car was well maintained. There are duplicate sensors and parts with the dates and mileage of when they were replaced, so this is not a mysterious rust bucket from the junk yard.

Applologies if I'm over-blowing the problem. I'm hoping that by sharing the detail/theories that either someone will chime in with a similar experience or someone in the future will benefit from mine. (That's usually how these forums work.)

The real moral to this story is find a reliable leak down tester before pulling the heads, and inspect that valley pan gasket thoroughly.

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[87_TX_T-Type]

It is a good possibility that the intake was leaking water into the valley. I don't see anything from the photos causing #5 plug to be white? Before you put it back together I suggest you pull each lifter out one at a time and inspect the surface for pitting or irregular wear. How many miles are on the motor?

Car has 165k on it. Not sure when the rebuild occurred.

Look out for pitted lifters added to list. Thanks for that piece of advice - that's exactly the kind of info I'm looking for.

I want to take focus off the #5 plug since the head and intake are in good shape. I think of it as a data point as opposed to a problem to address.

There are a number of reasons why #5 might look that way, but more importantly it has only been run for 3-5 minutes... maybe all the other plugs are the real issue?



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[Lil Truck]

It looks like your attending to all the critical observations. These cars require attention to detail !!

Clean and organize all the bols and nuts and group them with the parts they go with.
Clean all gasket surfaces with a razor blade (s)
Chase all torqued bolt threads with a thread chaser
Get all torque specs from gnttype.org
Inspect all wire connectors for damage and corrosion. Look for pinched and damaged wire .. Everywhere!
Make sure all ground connection surfaces are clean bare metal ...... Especially the 4 ground wires that attach to the back of the passenger side head and the battery ground cable that attaches to the bottom of the turbo bracket and the cylinder head.
Take your time it will pay off
If you have not installed an intake manifold with silicone sealer on the front and rear surfaces it would be a good idea to read about it and do a dry run install before putting the silicone on!

Number 5 might be the reason the car was parked, possible electrical problem you will have to diagnose after you get it back together? With all the mechanical inspected you should not have a problem finding it.

 

[87_TX_T-Type]

Got the heads back from Kim Barr Racing. Look good. No cracks. One intake and one exhaust valve had a minor leaks that Kim was able to patch up with magnaflux. (Not familiar with magnaflux, but great that it's resolved.) Probably removed about 95% of the carbon build up. He said there was some minor pitting of the valve seats, but that it was nothing of concern. Now I just have to do a ton of cleaning before everything goes back together.

Heads

• 87_TX_T-Type
• Mar 4, 2017

As for why the car was originally stored, it was not related to problems. My father had two other vehicles, and he didn't have the space for all three. The Buick hadn't been his daily driver in some time, and I believe he was a bit paranoid about it being stolen - so he moved the car into storage. Unfortunately, he had aneurysm and afterwards he never got around to starting it up (and couldn't remember all the kill switches).

 

[t-typinator]

Got the heads back from Kim Barr Racing. Look good. No cracks. One intake and one exhaust valve had a minor leaks that Kim was able to patch up with magnaflux. (Not familiar with magnaflux, but great that it's resolved.) Probably removed about 95% of the carbon build up. He said there was some minor pitting of the valve seats, but that it was nothing of concern. Now I just have to do a ton of cleaning before everything goes back together.

Heads

• 87_TX_T-Type
• Mar 4, 2017

Magnaflux isn't something that is used for patching leaks, it's a method used for finding cracks.
Check out the link for a good demo.

 

[87_TX_T-Type]

Magnafluxing isn't something that is used for patching something.

He was paraphrasing... point being any abnormalities with those two valves were remedied.

 

[pmesfun]

Hey I got my heads resurfaced at Kim Barr last week and got my car running today. If you need a hand with your Buick let me know.

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