TurBo BiRd
Strong Islander
- Joined
- May 17, 2002
Can't be the battery. I got a brand new battery and altenator before i left home.
Surprising Solution to TTA starting problem...
- Thread starter Rogue Leader
- Start date
Rogue Leader
Eat my valvestem caps!!!!
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
I dont think it ws the problem with mine tho... cause I pulled the ECM and put in a stock chip I had and it was still dead....
TurBo BiRd
Strong Islander
- Joined
- May 17, 2002
Totally agree w/ you there. Most people don't know to start w/ the battery on electrical problems.
Rogue Leader
Eat my valvestem caps!!!!
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Nope normal AC Delco... The battery is definitely bad The injectors pulsed (my noid light lit) but just didnt get enough juice to actually fire...
BUT the fun continues...
You all thought the drama was over... Toms car runs... YAY... NOPE.....
So with my new optima battery in my car I am getting a SES light.. my EGR system died somehow in this mess... I block off the EGR valve... I'll fix it some other time, car runs fine without it... take a ride to SK Speed to get some new MSD plug wires which of course they dont have (they didnt even just have the roll of wire so I can just make them myself like I usually do), car starts and runs fine now... Take a trip down to Pep Boys to get spark plugs (that they dont have) and some other junk and as I leave... IT WONT START!!!!!!!! At this point I contemplate lighting the car on fire but nah that is not a good idea, I jump it and get it home... Something is still wrong (obviously).
Now I pull the alternator out of the car, I bring it to autozone to test it... tester is broken... next autozone.. Ok they test it and the alternator is totally shot... So since Im replacing stuff might as well upgrade... So I got an AC Delco 140 amp 96 Impala SS alternator. Fits right in, new serpentine belt too. I think the alternator was just barely keeping up enough charge for the car to run, but not enough to charge the battery up. So now the car starts and runs ok... I let it run a while to charge the battery a bit, Shut it off, and It wont start... but I think thats probably because I probably killed it today driving it... I have the battery charger hooked up now..
Theres a weird sound coming from the EGR valve, the valve is new so I probbaly killed the solenoid... I think the computer is unhappy I blocked it off, but then again think this new ECM I have is screwed up too because the old one worked fine with the EGR blocked up.. I need to get the EGR solenoid, yeah good luck finding one nobody sells it, heck it took 3 parts stores to get the right spark plugs!!!
Next week... Plugs, wires, and prayer... maybe I should just sell it and get a honda???
Turbo__Tim
One heck of a Tim!
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
I had a crank sensor go bad (one of the reluctor fins was bent, and hitting it, as it heated up, the car would stall, then not start)
I don't know how the tta's are set up, but here is a posting by Jim Testa that might give you some fresh ideas...
1) Go to radio shack and spend $16.00 on a logic probe.
1.5) Verify 12v on pin M, pink/black wire coming from CCCI fuse.
2) At pin G of the ignition module, a dark green wire, backprobe with the logic probe and have a helper crank the car. If the logic probe blinks, the crank sensor is good. If no blink, then check for 12v at pin F, which is a gry/red wire. If you have 12v, verify a ground on pin H. If ground is good and you have 12v, then the crank sensor is bad. If you dont have 12v on pin F, the module is bad or the CCCI fuse is bad (Or a wiring problem between the fuse and module of course.)
If you have crank signal but no spark, the module is bad.
If you have crank signal, go to next step.
3) Using your logic probe, we'll check for cam sensor signal. Probe pin K, light blue wire and have a helper crank the car. Mind you the light will only blink every TWO revolutions. Let it spin a couple times to make sure the sensor hits every time and that its not flaky. If you have no puilse, verify 12v on terminal M, gray/red wire, and gnd on term L, black wire. If either is missing, the module is bad, or the CCCI fuse is blown (or the feed wire is open).
I doubt its the cam sensor because like I said, the ECM will NOT cause a no spark condition.
I think by now you will have found the problem, but if you want to go on...lets say you have ckp and cmp signal coming into the module. Now were gonna check it coming out.
Terminal C, a ppl/wht wire is ckp hi and is the signal used by the ECM. Backprobe this wire with your logic probe. Have a helper crank the car and look for blinky-blink. If no blinky-blink, then the module is bad. If blinky-blink, go to ECM pin B5 (ppl/wht) and verify the same thing. If you got blinky there, lets check for cam signal.
Go to module pin J, yellow wire, and verify the blink every 2 revolutions. If no blink, the module is bad. If blink, go to the ECM pin A11, yellow wire. Check for the same blink every 2 revolutions. If no blink, then theres an open in that wire between the ECM and module. If you got blinky, hook up yer scanner and crank the car while watching for RPM. If no RPM reading, and you have cam and crank signal, then the ECM is bad. (It wouldnt be the ECm fuse or power feed, cuz you have a data stream, proving the ECM has powered up) If you have RPM reading but no injector pulse (probe the opposite of the BROWN wires at the injectors. The brown is the power feed and the ECM grounds the injectors to fire them.) If you have RPM signal, but no pulse at the injector, then the ECM is bad.
BUT again, the ECM will NOT cause a no spark condition. So I doubt this is the case with your car.
At this point, your car should either be running, or on a tow truck destined for the junk yard as it defies logic
All the wiring diagrams you need are on gnttype. I know cuz I put them there. If you were closer, I'd get it running for you. Shouldnt take more than 1/2 hr to figure out whats wrong, and you wouldnt have to have a spare crank sensor and spare ignition module in yer garage.
"The following was written by Jim Testa and is a very logical means of troubleshooting a no start. Looks like you are ready to begin step 3. Hope Jim's info helps you. It has helped me many a time.
"OK, to diagnose ANY car, you need to find what you have and dont have. The way *I* usually go about it (which might not be right to some people, but its methodical and consistant so I stick to it.
1) Note the check engine light (if EFI). If its not on, STOP and find out why. Listen to how it cranks. I can pick out compression problems doing this. If you are in tune to your car, you can too. Listen to the starter as each cyl comes up on compression stoke. You'll hear the starter slow down a little at that point. You bight hear deerdeerdeerdeer, where a dead cyl m ight sound like deerdeeeeedeerdeer (great sound effects huh?)
2)Depending how accessible the intake is, I'll shoot 3 or 4 seconds of carb cleaner into the plenum. Either thru the throttle body, or the brake booster vacuum port. If its a lack of fuel problem, the car may start, it may simply kick. If it does either, its time to look to fuel system (usually, although enrighening can bring out a low sec output problem too, so dont take my suggestion of fuel as law)
3) If the car kicked, I'll put a FP gauge on it. If fuel pressure isnt in spec, now you need to see why. Fuel pump, filter, resticted line, bad reg, low batt voltage, bad relay, blown fuse etc. If FP is in spec, its time to hook up a noid light and verify our injectors are getting pulsed. If youre not getting a pulse you will want to hook up a scanner and look for RPM during crank. If you are getting RPM signal, check for spark. If you're getting spark and no fuel, although there is a commanded PW (see below) you probably have a bad ECM. How fast it cranks isnt as important as the fact you get a RPM signal. Next you'll look at Coolant temp to see if it coincides with ambient )if the car is cold), and verify TPS isnt shorted to Vref which will put the car in clear flood and cut off fuel. If these all look OK, you'll want to take a look at commanded PW.
3) If the car didnt kick, I'll yank a plug wire and see if I got spark. If I got no spark, then I'll check also for inj pulse using a noid light. If I have neither its usually due to a dead crank sensor. If I have no spark, but I have injector pulse, its usually a module.
Typically:
No start - no spark, has inj pulse -> Module
No start - has spark no inj pulse -> ECM / cam sensor prob
No start - no spark OR inj pulse - crank sensor or module
Oh, and if the module is dead, I suggest putting a coil pack on it as well as most of the module failure are caused by an overheating or arcing coil."
I don't know how the tta's are set up, but here is a posting by Jim Testa that might give you some fresh ideas...
1) Go to radio shack and spend $16.00 on a logic probe.
1.5) Verify 12v on pin M, pink/black wire coming from CCCI fuse.
2) At pin G of the ignition module, a dark green wire, backprobe with the logic probe and have a helper crank the car. If the logic probe blinks, the crank sensor is good. If no blink, then check for 12v at pin F, which is a gry/red wire. If you have 12v, verify a ground on pin H. If ground is good and you have 12v, then the crank sensor is bad. If you dont have 12v on pin F, the module is bad or the CCCI fuse is bad (Or a wiring problem between the fuse and module of course.)
If you have crank signal but no spark, the module is bad.
If you have crank signal, go to next step.
3) Using your logic probe, we'll check for cam sensor signal. Probe pin K, light blue wire and have a helper crank the car. Mind you the light will only blink every TWO revolutions. Let it spin a couple times to make sure the sensor hits every time and that its not flaky. If you have no puilse, verify 12v on terminal M, gray/red wire, and gnd on term L, black wire. If either is missing, the module is bad, or the CCCI fuse is blown (or the feed wire is open).
I doubt its the cam sensor because like I said, the ECM will NOT cause a no spark condition.
I think by now you will have found the problem, but if you want to go on...lets say you have ckp and cmp signal coming into the module. Now were gonna check it coming out.
Terminal C, a ppl/wht wire is ckp hi and is the signal used by the ECM. Backprobe this wire with your logic probe. Have a helper crank the car and look for blinky-blink. If no blinky-blink, then the module is bad. If blinky-blink, go to ECM pin B5 (ppl/wht) and verify the same thing. If you got blinky there, lets check for cam signal.
Go to module pin J, yellow wire, and verify the blink every 2 revolutions. If no blink, the module is bad. If blink, go to the ECM pin A11, yellow wire. Check for the same blink every 2 revolutions. If no blink, then theres an open in that wire between the ECM and module. If you got blinky, hook up yer scanner and crank the car while watching for RPM. If no RPM reading, and you have cam and crank signal, then the ECM is bad. (It wouldnt be the ECm fuse or power feed, cuz you have a data stream, proving the ECM has powered up) If you have RPM reading but no injector pulse (probe the opposite of the BROWN wires at the injectors. The brown is the power feed and the ECM grounds the injectors to fire them.) If you have RPM signal, but no pulse at the injector, then the ECM is bad.
BUT again, the ECM will NOT cause a no spark condition. So I doubt this is the case with your car.
At this point, your car should either be running, or on a tow truck destined for the junk yard as it defies logic
All the wiring diagrams you need are on gnttype. I know cuz I put them there. If you were closer, I'd get it running for you. Shouldnt take more than 1/2 hr to figure out whats wrong, and you wouldnt have to have a spare crank sensor and spare ignition module in yer garage.
"The following was written by Jim Testa and is a very logical means of troubleshooting a no start. Looks like you are ready to begin step 3. Hope Jim's info helps you. It has helped me many a time.
"OK, to diagnose ANY car, you need to find what you have and dont have. The way *I* usually go about it (which might not be right to some people, but its methodical and consistant so I stick to it.
1) Note the check engine light (if EFI). If its not on, STOP and find out why. Listen to how it cranks. I can pick out compression problems doing this. If you are in tune to your car, you can too. Listen to the starter as each cyl comes up on compression stoke. You'll hear the starter slow down a little at that point. You bight hear deerdeerdeerdeer, where a dead cyl m ight sound like deerdeeeeedeerdeer (great sound effects huh?)
2)Depending how accessible the intake is, I'll shoot 3 or 4 seconds of carb cleaner into the plenum. Either thru the throttle body, or the brake booster vacuum port. If its a lack of fuel problem, the car may start, it may simply kick. If it does either, its time to look to fuel system (usually, although enrighening can bring out a low sec output problem too, so dont take my suggestion of fuel as law)
3) If the car kicked, I'll put a FP gauge on it. If fuel pressure isnt in spec, now you need to see why. Fuel pump, filter, resticted line, bad reg, low batt voltage, bad relay, blown fuse etc. If FP is in spec, its time to hook up a noid light and verify our injectors are getting pulsed. If youre not getting a pulse you will want to hook up a scanner and look for RPM during crank. If you are getting RPM signal, check for spark. If you're getting spark and no fuel, although there is a commanded PW (see below) you probably have a bad ECM. How fast it cranks isnt as important as the fact you get a RPM signal. Next you'll look at Coolant temp to see if it coincides with ambient )if the car is cold), and verify TPS isnt shorted to Vref which will put the car in clear flood and cut off fuel. If these all look OK, you'll want to take a look at commanded PW.
3) If the car didnt kick, I'll yank a plug wire and see if I got spark. If I got no spark, then I'll check also for inj pulse using a noid light. If I have neither its usually due to a dead crank sensor. If I have no spark, but I have injector pulse, its usually a module.
Typically:
No start - no spark, has inj pulse -> Module
No start - has spark no inj pulse -> ECM / cam sensor prob
No start - no spark OR inj pulse - crank sensor or module
Oh, and if the module is dead, I suggest putting a coil pack on it as well as most of the module failure are caused by an overheating or arcing coil."
Rogue Leader
Eat my valvestem caps!!!!
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
The weak alternator seems to have cured it... I guess it helps to have 2 other F-bodies in the driveway to compare voltage readings at different places to. I think what happened was because the alternator was weak (but not dead) and keeping just enough charge for the car to run, but not enough to charge the battery... so after 1 or 2 starts the battery doesnt have enough juice to run the injectors, I never had a no spark condition at all.
What happened was while I put a new battery in, i killed it with the old alternatoir, so I just charged it overnight and its ok for now...
Now Im gonna fix this EGR problem and change the plugs and wires and I should be good (they havent been changed in a couple years).
What happened was while I put a new battery in, i killed it with the old alternatoir, so I just charged it overnight and its ok for now...
Now Im gonna fix this EGR problem and change the plugs and wires and I should be good (they havent been changed in a couple years).
Rogue Leader
Eat my valvestem caps!!!!
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Ok everything is good now, the car starts and stuff fine, the new ECM was bad thats why I had the EGR problem, its gone now..
Then im out on the road I go over 10 lbs nd POP a loud backfire, turn around same thing... Swicthed to my old coilpack and now over 10lbs the car pops like a popcorn machine, but its VERY VERY faint you can feel it tho... no Knock retard on the scanmaster...
Why do I have a feeling I took out a set of headgaskets.....
Then im out on the road I go over 10 lbs nd POP a loud backfire, turn around same thing... Swicthed to my old coilpack and now over 10lbs the car pops like a popcorn machine, but its VERY VERY faint you can feel it tho... no Knock retard on the scanmaster...
Why do I have a feeling I took out a set of headgaskets.....
TurBo BiRd
Strong Islander
- Joined
- May 17, 2002
Rogue Leader I didn't realize you were form Long Island! I live right of Rt. 109 down Arnold Ave. We'll have to get together sometime when I get out of school (Mid Sept.). I have an 89 GTA w/ a TTA swap. Small world. haha
Rogue Leader
Eat my valvestem caps!!!!
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
YEah man I think you know my friend Andy, he told me about someone who did a TTA motor swap around where you are... Andy has a Red 88 TA, its dead right now tho...
