Timing vs. Spool

[99Formula]

Does high timing really effect spool as much as it seems to, or is something wrong with my car? This last Friday it was taking me as much as 10 seconds to build over 15 psi on the trans brake. This was on C16 with about 30 degrees of timing, and only 22 psi boost. Normally when I run 100 octane + Xylene (22 to 24*) I can get to 15 psi within about 4 seconds. This is on a TE-44, so spool usually isn't an issue but this last weekend I wanted to leave the car in the staging beams with a brick on the accelerator, go get a sandwich and come back to make my run.

Has anyone with a T+ experimented with only adding timing to WOT, and leaving base timing at or near 0 to speed up spool?

Peter

 

[GNVYUS 1]

The lower the timing, the hotter the exhaust gases, the better the low end spool.

Ever see an old hot rod motor getting fired up for the first time with low timing ( just on the distributor, no vacuum advance ) the headers glow. This is due to the heat thats given off by not completely burning the fuel in the cylinder.

Check your blm's and then lower your timing in 1st. The chip guys can do wonders out there now so do not be afraid to ask for specific things. I am not familiar with T +, sorry.

 

[KEVINS]

Originally posted by 99Formula
Has anyone with a T+ experimented with only adding timing to WOT, and leaving base timing at or near 0 to speed up spool?

I don't have a T+ but I have experimented with timing on my chips and it makes a huge difference. The less timing the faster the spool.

ks

 

[Eds87GN]

I remember TurboDave discussing this once.
It was about retarding the base timing and then adding the timing back in on the WOT setting.

This is just an example:
Your chip has 20 deg. timing.
Set your base timing to 4 deg. retard = 16 deg.
Set the WOT timing to 4 deg. advanced to get you back to the original 20 deg. timing.

I need to try this myself. TurboDave?

Later,
Ed

 

[99Formula]

I'm going to have to try doing something like that... The spool time was ridiculous... I'm running a 92 octane chip so I have to turn up the timing quite a bit when running good gas. I'm wondering if I shouldn't add it all or most to the WOT side instead of split between wot and base side. I'll have to experiment with that. I just hate having to experiment on $9/gal gas. That gets expensive real quick. Another thing I forgot was trying the quick spool setting on the extender chip. Maybe that would have helped a little.

Peter

 

[Buick Beginner]

Excellent Discussion!

Nice post - good questions! Can we take it up a level? Can timing over come, say, a turbo that's a little too big? - BB

 

[Donald McMullin]

With the Spark Translator you can connect the Aux wire to your brake light and dial in as much spark retard as you want without changing the Base or WOT spark settings.

I can see my EGT change by just using the brake.

Deep Enough
Donald McMullin

 

[bruce]

It's the pressure drop across the turbo that makes it spin.
The greater the pressure the faster it can spool.

It's a balance of fuel and timing to get it spooled.

You can drastically retard the timing, and add fuel hoping for afterburning, or lean with alot of timing. Some combos like different setups.

Tuning the Accleration Enrichment is the name of the game, IMO.
But, it's a Pain to get correct. Often folks go with a looser converter when in fact getting the AE correct is the answer.

 

[JToups386]

Everytime Bruce replies, he makes my brain hurt...
There's always another way to think about things, when you're someone who understands quantam physics, and knows how to build a working space shuttle...

I "was" going to just get a looser converter for my similar situation...

Thanks Bruce, for making me have to think...

 

[1320]

Don M. I just put a T+ in on friday.....what aux wire? I m still waiting for an extreme chip....but I don t know what wire your talking about to connect to the brake light? just curious really, spooling is ok.....

Pete, my 44 was spooling so fast I could red light on the protree on MM........ at about 9-11 psi.......

 

[99Formula]

Originally posted by 1320

Pete, my 44 was spooling so fast I could red light on the protree on MM........ at about 9-11 psi.......

Jon,
What kind of gas and timing were you running? You launching off the foot brake or t-brake?

I think I need to bite the bullet and get a tank full of C16 and just tune for a couple of days.

Peter

 

[1320]

Pete....I ve got a whole bunch of 009 chips....one I need to down load and look at, cause get this its a 20 degree chip and it ran better then all the 26 degree programs I tried....its a mystery chip, I didn t make it or know who did.

I run on and tune with av gas....its 108 runs 2.50 a gallon.

I always use the trans brake, the rear discs on the tta wont hold 1 si......

I like the T+ so far....it mphered fine....the track sucked so my 60 'ft suffered.........

 

[99Formula]

Originally posted by 1320
Pete....I ve got a whole bunch of 009 chips....one I need to down load and look at, cause get this its a 20 degree chip and it ran better then all the 26 degree programs I tried....its a mystery chip, I didn t make it or know who did.
I run on and tune with av gas....its 108 runs 2.50 a gallon.
I like the T+ so far....it mphered fine....the track sucked so my 60 'ft suffered.........

My car won't run less than 22 degrees on decent gas without freaking out. It starts sputtering and backfiring. I dunno why, the thing is just picky.

Where are you getting the avgas? I tried the Henderson airport one day and they wouldn't let me out to get any. If I could get the car dialed in on 108, it would run at least as well as it did on C16 with a sketchy tune.

I have about 5 chips you're more than welcome to try out if you want. They're just burning a hole in the glove compartment, I've had the Extender in for about 3 months now since I got the T+.

Peter

 

[CopGn]

Most guys I know run lean with a lot of timing to get the turbo to spool. Jay C has a chip that is boost sensing. Basically in low or no boost conditions it adds a ton of timing and takes it out as boost rises. You have to run a 3 bar map sensor though. I don't know if Max Effort has something similar and for the money people are paying for FAST it should definitly have it.

 

[Donald McMullin]

1320:

The Aux wire comes on the Spark Translator only. It is an added feature that would be nice on the Trans Plus, but it is not included at this time.

I am going to install a Trans Plus, but I will retain my Spark Translator also so I have the Aux feature.

Right now I am using Jay Carter variable timing with the spark translator. On the street using 104 unleaded I am running @34* timing up to 10 psig boost at this point the timing starts declining down to 25* @ 18 psig. Aux set at 6* retard when brake light is on.

Donald McMullin

 

[KEVINS]

Running MORE timing KILLED my spoolup. I tried 3 different chips pretty much back to back and the one that worked the best has VERY LOW timing during the spoolup stage. IMO more timing just didn't make sense while building boost.

My theory: The more timing the more before TDC the plug is firing and this works against the motor trying to rev while staging. Bringing the timing closer to 0 allows the motor to rev quicker and easier thus getting the turbo to spin to create boost. After launching and under load pull the timing back to where it needs/likes it. Also, the closer to 0* BTDC the more the combustion "flame" will be in the exhaust to get the turbo spinning.

ks

 

[TurboDave]

Sorry for the late reply, but yes, I've done a good bit of "playing" with the timing setups in the T+.

Was forced to, especially at high Density altitude tracks.
Last year, my chip was a 23/21° chip.
So, I would pull the base timing back by as much as 6-8° (depending on track and weather conditions) to get a good fast spool up in the lights, I would then advance the WOT timing by at least that same amount PLUS whatever I needed to get it to my desired 28° of race timing.
How much you advance the WOT timing will depend entirely on what you're trying to accomplish (street or race, gas, etc.)