Tuning observations

[Razor]

Well i've been guinea pigging some new ideas, looks to be promising. Here are some numbers from tonite,

1.086
1.557
4.532
7.026
99.34

.562
1.613
4.657
7.179
98.36

1.023
1.526
4.526
7.070
97.18

.216
1.718
4.701
7.192
99.37

These are 1/8 mile track numbers, my 1/4 mile track banned me and tonite my 1/8 mile track gave me Das boot

Anyways timing run was 29 degrees in 1st gear, 24 in 2nd and third at a peak boost of 25 PSI. I've kept the car at 25 PSI the last few weeks testing ideas. Looks like the strategy is working.

Changes made to my own kit was the addition of a second nozzle M10, and a little pump mod .. shhh.. Pressure is at 170 at 25 PSI on twins. EGT's on all the above runs was between 1500-1520 and the addition of the second nozzle on straight methanol.. it has come alive as far as timing is concerned. the added my car hates timing deal... got the fix

All the runs were on pure 93 no added mix, the ME-r chip, and some better outside temps tonite. I was hoping for one more run to turn up the boost.. but got Das boot from the track.

thought i'd share info that is limited...

Not bad for a car on DOT's ... driven to and from the track.

back to tinkering...

 

[HellOnWheels]

Do you recommend raising the pressure to 170 psi on all your kits, as well as installing a second nozzle if timing is added?




HOW

 

[my 1st gn]

alky

at what point do you need a 2nd nozzle

 

[Razor]

You guys always ask the hard questions

HOW, part of the "Beta testers wanted" thread I put was it modded the pump accordingly. The pressure can only be run with sufficient fuel being pulled. This requires tuning. There is no McDonalds. As easy as the kit is to dial in, and works tremendously dont let what I send stop you from tinkering. 170+ PSI on twin nozzles is a lot of flow. A LOT. You'll be seeing blue flames coming out the exhuast when you lift from the alcohol burning in the exhuast . So it gives the ability to really drill the motor with alky. This type of flow should only be done once you've gotten the hang of dialing in the kit and maxing out the controls. Then going back to square one and refiguring out the injection process.

Like i'll start you with a .357 then have you move up to a 44 if I set all the kits up on twins, there would be a lot of issues from flooding, sputtering, etc. Those running my system note the consumption. It gets worse as the pressure/nozzle is upped.

Note how i've kept the car at 25 PSI till I feel its time to go up on boost. Its not that it cant go to 30.. but if its not running optimally at 25.. why go to 30.

When to go to twins, when the basic kit has been mastered and you need more. In my own personal case, 11.2's.

I will say.. its awesome how the car is responding. Low EGT's 1519 on the 7.02 run.. that gives tremendous headroom for issues to arise and the thing stay together.

I do not know what the limit of these systems can be. I'm just scratching the surface. And sharing info.

Cheers

 

[my 1st gn]

alky

thanks for the info razor
what do you think about my new setup

87 gn stock motor
pt 54
thunderfab stock ic
60 lbs injectors, 340 fuel pump hotwire kit
3200 stall
an cooming soon your kit one nozzle would be ok
more street driving than track
just want to go mid 11's
don't want to put a cage in my car

 

[Razor]

Looks like a solid combo is tuned. Dont know if you've done springs and timing chain already. And use a scanmasterII for checking your knock.

With tires, you should break into the 11's no problem with a simple chip approx 25 PSI boost. No dual nozzle is needed for what you'll be doing.

HTH

 

[Swede2]

Was it your best 1/8 time ever Julio ? That time points on some 10.8 in 1/4!

Did you send me the beta test thing ? Have not recived anything yet. And I sent you a email, that might be intresting for you

Daniel

 

[Hyboost4Banger]

Originally posted by Razor
Well i've been guinea pigging some new ideas, looks to be promising. Here are some numbers from tonite,

1.086
1.557
4.532
7.026
99.34

.562
1.613
4.657
7.179
98.36

1.023
1.526
4.526
7.070
97.18

.216
1.718
4.701
7.192
99.37

These are 1/8 mile track numbers, my 1/4 mile track banned me and tonite my 1/8 mile track gave me Das boot

Anyways timing run was 29 degrees in 1st gear, 24 in 2nd and third at a peak boost of 25 PSI. I've kept the car at 25 PSI the last few weeks testing ideas. Looks like the strategy is working.

Changes made to my own kit was the addition of a second nozzle M10, and a little pump mod .. shhh.. Pressure is at 170 at 25 PSI on twins. EGT's on all the above runs was between 1500-1520 and the addition of the second nozzle on straight methanol....
.......it has come alive as far as timing is concerned. the added my car hates timing deal... got the fix {----???? Julio, I dont understand what you were saying here?}

... Mark

 

[Razor]

Daniel, got your email. The items ship Monday. You'll have them before the snow melts . I did get the other email, just need to spend a little time developing that.

Mark, for the last two years playing with injection it appeared that we could run higher boost and lower timing with alcohol. And it wouldnt detonate. All of a sudden I increase the flow(nozzles) and drop my EGT's... car picks up like crazy and more timing can be run without detonation. My tune-up advice(and this was what everyone was saying) was to run lower timing with alcohol. Guess I learned to correct this, and am here to say keep the egt's lower where the motor is making power..then keep adding timing at it. 29 degrees and 25 PSI = lots of fun.

I'm running timing and boost that "most" would say thats for C16 only. It isnt knocking, and i'm putting the squeeze to the motor. More boost after I get a cage taken care off.

Someday i'll be hanging with my 30+ PSI brothers again.. But if it doesnt run rite at 25..why go 30. Think my 25 PSI numbers are there...

 

[HellOnWheels]

Originally posted by Razor
Daniel, got your email. The items ship Monday. You'll have them before the snow melts . I did get the other email, just need to spend a little time developing that.

Mark, for the last two years playing with injection it appeared that we could run higher boost and lower timing with alcohol. And it wouldnt detonate. All of a sudden I increase the flow(nozzles) and drop my EGT's... car picks up like crazy and more timing can be run without detonation. My tune-up advice(and this was what everyone was saying) was to run lower timing with alcohol. Guess I learned to correct this, and am here to say keep the egt's lower where the motor is making power..then keep adding timing at it. 29 degrees and 25 PSI = lots of fun.

I'm running timing and boost that "most" would say thats for C16 only. It isnt knocking, and i'm putting the squeeze to the motor. More boost after I get a cage taken care off.

Someday i'll be hanging with my 30+ PSI brothers again.. But if it doesnt run rite at 25..why go 30. Think my 25 PSI numbers are there...

Julio,

How did you plumb the second nozzle in, by simply adding a "T" on the nozzle line?

Are you still playing with the relocation of the MAT sensor between the nozzle(s) and the throttle body?

Thanks

 

[Hyboost4Banger]

Originally posted by Razor
Daniel, got your email. The items ship Monday. You'll have them before the snow melts . I did get the other email, just need to spend a little time developing that.

Mark, for the last two years playing with injection it appeared that we could run higher boost and lower timing with alcohol. And it wouldnt detonate. All of a sudden I increase the flow(nozzles) and drop my EGT's... car picks up like crazy and more timing can be run without detonation. My tune-up advice(and this was what everyone was saying) was to run lower timing with alcohol. Guess I learned to correct this, and am here to say keep the egt's lower where the motor is making power..then keep adding timing at it. 29 degrees and 25 PSI = lots of fun.

I'm running timing and boost that "most" would say thats for C16 only. It isnt knocking, and i'm putting the squeeze to the motor. More boost after I get a cage taken care off.

Someday i'll be hanging with my 30+ PSI brothers again.. But if it doesnt run rite at 25..why go 30. Think my 25 PSI numbers are there...

Julio,

I think you're right on with "more alky-more timing" therory. Two jets certainly works good for me. I think my car is faster on 92 octane and lots of alky than it was on K&S 120 octane. Currently I run about 20-22 degrees in top gear with no knock. I'm tempted to try a little more alky and more timing. Tempted....and nervous.

Couple of questions "just for giggles".......

I thought you abandoned the dual nozzel set up when you first started running alky? ( I saw the nitrous "Y" thumbnail on alkycontrol.com and asked questions ) I assume you "Re-thunk" the idea? What was the problem then?

And ......How have you been getting away all this time running mid to low 11's without getting the boot for no cage?

Mark

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by HellOnWheels
Julio,

How did you plumb the second nozzle in, by simply adding a "T" on the nozzle line?

Are you still playing with the relocation of the MAT sensor between the nozzle(s) and the throttle body?

Thanks

HOW.. Yes to both your questions

Man your good

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by Hyboost4Banger
Julio,

I think you're right on with "more alky-more timing" therory. Two jets certainly works good for me. I think my car is faster on 92 octane and lots of alky than it was on K&S 120 octane. Currently I run about 20-22 degrees in top gear with no knock. I'm tempted to try a little more alky and more timing. Tempted....and nervous.

Couple of questions "just for giggles".......

I thought you abandoned the dual nozzel set up when you first started running alky? ( I saw the nitrous "Y" thumbnail on alkycontrol.com and asked questions ) I assume you "Re-thunk" the idea? What was the problem then?

And ......How have you been getting away all this time running mid to low 11's without getting the boot for no cage?

Mark

Mark,
Well last year my track wsa IHRA and about the only rule they had was please no beer in one hand while racing . This year they're changing to NHRA and my jig is up. I've now been booted from both local tracks within the past month

That Forcefed4 guy is who got me thinking on the dual nozzle. And I started to pay attention to how much was being pumped in. Once I was running the pump on a single maxed out.. I said.. lets step up to a little more and see what happens. Also to note my tuning abilities have changed, way of tuning has changed, i've just adapted to what the car likes best. Like earlier said, who runs with a Buick motor at 25 PSI boost, 24 degree's timing at 1500 EGT and traps 99.3 in the 1/8 on 93 octane.

Also when I said one was enough, or should have been enough, I was running a .5 second slower. I figured running 150+ PSI on a single was enough.. well it was for a long time.. Listen all this is crazy stuff.. the issue of running big timing/big boost/ on pump gas... You have to be a bit reckless. The last three weeks of running higher volumes have certainly been fun

Is what it is. Hope this changes some of the tuning strategies of the past.. try and report back.

 

[4sfed4]

Originally posted by Razor

That Forcefed4 guy is who got me thinking on the dual nozzle. And I started to pay attention to how much was being pumped in.

WOOT WOOT!

Dual nozzle (M10 and M15) and 170 psi injection pressure = 11.8-12.0 A/F. Perfect!

 

[Swede2]

Ofcourse will the car go faster with more methanol. Thats why all the top fuel cars goes on methanol/nitro. I dont know how the mix is now in for exampel your car Julio ? I mean, you maybe run more methanol than pump gas now ?

I am very impressed by the evolution of this kit. It has really proven itself to be probably the best "bolt on" we can get on our cars nowdays.

Does the same A/F ratios work on race gas vs alky ?

Daniel

 

[4sfed4]

Originally posted by Swede2
I mean, you maybe run more methanol than pump gas now ?

Not sure on Julios car...but I know mine does run more methanol than gasoline (by mass) when under boost with the dual nozzles.

I think there will come a point thought where one is going to reach a "wall" and more methanol isnt practical. It takes twice as much methanol as gasoline to support a given power level and there is only so much space in the port. You need some room for air too

As to what that limit is...I dunno. I only know my car and many others seem to run like raped apes the more methanol you throw at it!

 

[HellOnWheels]

Originally posted by 4sfed4
Not sure on Julios car...but I know mine does run more methanol than gasoline (by mass) when under boost with the dual nozzles.

I think there will come a point thought where one is going to reach a "wall" and more methanol isnt practical. It takes twice as much methanol as gasoline to support a given power level and there is only so much space in the port. You need some room for air too

As to what that limit is...I dunno. I only know my car and many others seem to run like raped apes the more methanol you throw at it!

Larry,

Can you describe how you plumbed the second line/nozzle and where in the up pipe did you mount the nozzles?

TIA
HOW

 

[Swede2]

Originally posted by 4sfed4
I think there will come a point thought where one is going to reach a "wall" and more methanol isnt practical. It takes twice as much methanol as gasoline to support a given power level and there is only so much space in the port. You need some room for air too

Yes there must be a limit hehe. But... You dont need as much air with methanol as you need with gasoline, but I am sure you already knew about that. But as you indicated, most people have already runned faster on pump gas than they ever did on race gas.

Daniel

 

[4sfed4]

Originally posted by Swede2
Yes there must be a limit hehe. But... You dont need as much air with methanol as you need with gasoline, but I am sure you already knew about that

Yeah.....the fact that methanol is about 50% oxygen comes to mind

 

[4sfed4]

Originally posted by HellOnWheels
Larry,

Can you describe how you plumbed the second line/nozzle and where in the up pipe did you mount the nozzles?

TIA
HOW

Well, I dont have a Buick (mines 2.2L Dodge). So, as to the specifics of nozzle location I cant comment on the Buicks.

But, on my Dodge I have both nozzles installed within a few inches of each other in an inlet pipe before the TB.

The way the nozzles are plumbed is pretty simple. At the outlet of the solenoid (I have a solenoid becuase my reservoir is higher than the nozzles) I have a -4an to -4an swivel fitting. This swivel fitting adapts the solenoid -4an male fitting to the -4an male inlet fitting on a nitrous (NOS brand) Y fitting. This NOS fitting has one -4an inlet and two -4an outlets. The -4an outlets each have a section of braided hose attached which feed each nozzle. It works like a champ.

NOS Y Fitting

Swivel Fitting