Turbo Failures Part 2 ?

[The Radius Kid]

I recently took my Te63e in to Jim Haley to get rebuilt for TTipe's new build.
After procuring the rebuild parts for the center section I got a call from Jim telling me there was a small problem that needed to be rectified.
It turns out the inner thrust hat was floating in the relief groove for the compressor/thrust ring shaft.
The width of the groove appears to be .312" wide.
The overall height of the inner "hat" is .321" high from the back face to the top of the spigot.
That also means that the inner bore height is the same from the back face to the top of the spigot.
With the small chamfer in the bore of the original part,the hat registers on the larger OD to stay centered.
The new part is the same height,but the chamfer in the small end appears to be around .020" X 45 degrees.
The original appears to be slightly rounded and around .005" wide.
Now .321 - .005 = .316"
.321 - .020 = .301"
It would appear the old part was riding on a very thin band of the shaft to center itself and stayed centered,but the new one can't ride on any part of the shaft and actually drops into the relief groove,running off center.
That's why it couldn't be balanced after it was bolted together - the inner thrust hat was running out.
Apparently the parts dimensions were decided on by Harry at Precision and John Craig at Limit.
Pics included below.

 

[The Radius Kid]

Here's some pics :

 

[bison]

It should be noted the the 3rd pic is a 270* thrust collar and will work on any .3125" shaft regardless of the diameter directly after the journals.


BPE2013@hotmail.com

 

[The Radius Kid]

Isn't that third pic' the two piece unit?
I thought it was the same config' as the new 360 unit recently supplied with the new center section?

 

[bison]

Isn't that third pic' the two piece unit?
I thought it was the same config' as the new 360 unit recently supplied with the new center section?

The one in the pic is a 270*. It's all one piece and the only one id use with that shaft


BPE2013@hotmail.com

 

[The Radius Kid]

The one in the pic is a 270*. It's all one piece and the only one id use with that shaft


BPE2013@hotmail.com

I agree.
With the dimensions they machined the 2 piece 360 parts to,I would say you're correct.
However the original part as used in the build by the original vendor is there in all it's glory.
It seemed to work.
The new version is changed slightly.
That's why I ask:

When I talked to a major turbo rebuilder and he says to use the new parts as they sit because they will center up when the stack is tightened,I can't see how.
If my shaft is representative of some of the others as far dimensions go,could it be that this thrust collar is not staying centered and at speed is causing some imbalance that's taking out turbos prematurely?
A pic' of the new hat was sent to the rebuilder of note and he assured me that not only would the part work fine,but it was the same part the they use now in this situation - he knew the details of the shaft as well.
Go figure.

 

[bison]

I agree.
With the dimensions they machined the 2 piece 360 parts to,I would say you're correct.
However the original part as used in the build by the original vendor is there in all it's glory.
It seemed to work.
The new version is changed slightly.
That's why I ask:

When I talked to a major turbo rebuilder and he says to use the new parts as they sit because they will center up when the stack is tightened,I can't see how.
If my shaft is representative of some of the others as far dimensions go,could it be that this thrust collar is not staying centered and at speed is causing some imbalance that's taking out turbos prematurely?
A pic' of the new hat was sent to the rebuilder of note and he assured me that not only would the part work fine,but it was the same part the they use now in this situation - he knew the details of the shaft as well.
Go figure.

There's no way that will balance if that collar isn't central. I wouldn't even attempt to use a 360 thrust with that shaft. It would be a 270* or I'd send the cartridge back as not serviceable.


BPE2013@hotmail.com

 

[The Radius Kid]

There's no way that will balance if that collar isn't central. I wouldn't even attempt to use a 360 thrust with that shaft.


BPE2013@hotmail.com

And yet a major Buick turbo rebuilder told me that's exactly what they would use and do and it would work fine.
I don't get how.

 

[TTipe]

And yet a major Buick turbo rebuilder told me that's exactly what they would use and do and it would work fine.
I don't get how.

No way is this situation a rebuild using the "approved" hat and 360 deg thrust collar. Perhaps this is the "approved" signal to purchase the new & bullet proof roller bearing thrust system which eliminates supplier responsibility and improves profitability. With a very small change in the machining (like a slightly longer hat to force centering) we are golden.

 

[The Radius Kid]

No way is this situation a rebuild using the "approved" hat and 360 deg thrust collar. Perhaps this is the "approved" signal to purchase the new & bullet proof roller bearing thrust system which eliminates supplier responsibility and improves profitability. With a very small change in the machining (like a slightly longer hat to force centering) we are golden.

This IS a rebuild using parts designed and approved by them.
THAT"S the issue.
I guess they figure it like garages do: If they screw the pooch you'll never know,you'll just bring it back to be repaired again and they'll blame it all on you for not using the new improved Super Connewton valve.
It's funny how the OEM's can get a turbo to spin 200,00 + RPM and live for years under warranty,but we buy/have rebuilt turbos that spin 120,00 RPM or so and last one season or less ?
No way I'm letting this stand.
You are right though,if the hat was .100" or so taller with a corresponding counterbore in the back of the "saucer",this issue would be a non starter and everything would be golden for the sake of a small adjustment to the spec'.
It would be a standard fit where this part is used now without the issues.
Of course these turbos might last longer as well.
Now let's see if they'll pay us for the use of the idea ......... LOL!