Advantages of Alky under 20 PSI?

[Buick Beginner]

Gentlemen,
Thanks for taking the time to view this post and hopefully add your inputs. Let’s take a look at a hypothetical car. Now, the car had an engine rebuild about 4000 miles ago. The previous owner of the car was pleased with his ability to rebuild an engine, (I get the feeling he had never done it before). But the new owner, doesn’t want to run anything over 20 lbs of boost because he isn’t so sure the head gaskets will take it. Now let’s say that the car has a TE-44 and an ATR FMIC. It runs 20 PSI of boost with no KR on 93 octane-unleaded fuel, using a 23-degree chip. Now, based on these figures what would the advantage be of an alky kit? I’m not interested in running more boost, but could I get away with say, 26 degrees of timing advance? Or, is it that at this point in the game alky has no advantages to offer? Please enlighten me. - BB

 

[blackbuick87]

Your kidding yourself if you think adding timing is any less stressful on an engine then more boost. Adding timing increases cylinder pressure also, thats how it increases horsepower. High timing will blow a gasket just as fast as high boost.

How you can run 20psi on pump gas is beyond me, the guy must have done something right. The only way you are going to blow a gasket is if the engine knocks. Dont let it know and you will be fine. If the engine hasnt blown by now its probably ok

 

[Turbo__Tim]

Something else is involved here. Without a scan tool, how do you know how much knock retard is taking place? Or verify that timing numbar? All that cool stuff, and no scantool?

Maybe he is running very low compression....

Sure it's not a 18* chip? With the translator, there are many timinng curves, and depending on the option you select, the timing can drop a lot after 3 rpm points. You may start at 23*(first gear), and end up at 18* (3rd gear) for example.

I saw an old Jack Cotton chip that did indeed run 20* boost on pump gas. At the top of first gear, for about 2 seconds. After the shift it was at 16 pounds.

Anyway to answer your question the best way I can- only 1 or two people have come on the board saying the alchy injection did not help them. The vast majority see an improvement.

There is just simply only so much power you can make on pump gas. The best indicator of that is the times, and mph at the end of the quarter.

Just so you know, few cars can run much over 16 psi constantly through the quarterr without knock retard, using pump Gas. See what his quarter mile times are, and if they are in the 12's, steal a sample of his 'pump gas', and send it out to be tested.

Or check to see if it is purple..

 

[Buick Beginner]

Wait wait wait

OK, sorry. This is an excercise in speculation and not reality. My bad. Thanks for the inputs! I'm learning. Right now I'm running a stock turbo and IC. But, I'm trying to learn some things based upon this hypothetical situation. In reality right now, (I have Direct Scan), I can run 20 PSI with my T+ on it's 93 octane timing setting of 19 low gear and 17 high gear. That being with 25% xylene under optimum conditions. So in reality I know that an Alky set-up would do me good, but by talking about our hypothetical car it just helps me to learn more. Sorry if I mislead anyone. Now, if the hypo car can squeeze say, 18 PSI and 20 timing, out of it's TE-44 - FMIC is it worth the added expense for a kit, IF you are going to limit yourself to 20PSI of boost? It sounds like perhaps the alky could offer other advantages under 20 as well.

 

[blackbuick87]

You should max out the stocker before jumping to a 44.

A real life example is my car. I am running a stock turbo and IC at 20psi on 94 octane and alky, running a 22 degree chip. I am getting zero knock on top end (the important place to be knock free) but am getting slight knock on the shifts (need more testing)

The stock turbo is pretty happy at 20psi. I wouldnt take it over 22 psi.

 

[Turbo__Tim]

Ok I see what you were going for.

I picked up a couple psi, no knock, with a front mount. I guess a 44 turbo would eventually help you as well.

Alchy injection is great, and will help you pick up 4-5 psi more boost, or the equivilent in timing advancement to make the power. By cooling the intake air temps the intake charge will have more oxygen for burning.

Also ported irons will flow @ 20 psi, like about 23 psi with the stockers.

There are lots of ways to go. Like blackbuick87 said, max the stocker out first.

If I had it to do over again, I would have ported the heads, and went with the alchy. Then all the other stuff!

The stock turbos seem to last a lot longer, so stay with that. Guys get into the 12's with them...

The translator is a needed piece as well for fuel, and timing manipulation.

Now you have something to think about!

 

[blackbuick87]

Originally posted by Turbo__Tim

The stock turbos seem to last a lot longer, so stay with that. Guys get into the 12's with them...

Mine's getting into the 11's, or I will blow her up trying

I love the stock turbo. Spools great, handles high boost (compared to stock) and takes a real beating. How many other turbo cars can run their stock turbo 9psi over stock and go low 12's high 11's with them

 

[Turbo__Tim]

Yep! Like I said if I had it to do all over....

TTA89 got his car into the 11's. But that was a lighter car, (and driver) and he did eventually blow up.

In your case you have taken the stocker as low as I've heard of. Time to say 'nice job', and go for the larger turbo!

Unless building motors is your hobby as well.

How about a big honkin' ball bearing job? Should last longer than it takes to pay it off the Master Card...

 

[blackbuick87]

I only need 4-5 more mph, and my runs have only been at 20psi. With C-16, a big neck and a good launch (God willing) I think its possible, without blowing it up. Shouldnt have any knock so we'll see. I might cheat and take out the back seat

I dont really car about this engine, because I have the stock block that a previous owner smoked that I am prepping now for a real build .

I have no idea whats wrong, but initial inspections revealed #4 and 6 HG GONE, so I am expecting bearing damage, but not much since they blew in the valley. The crank should be good, and I know the pistons are if someone needs a set of good stockers

 

[WakkoSS]

How do you overstress a stock turbo and how will it blow up the engine? I've got two extra stockers (one has 25k miles, one has an unknown amount) and was keeping at least one as a spare if my 44 blows up.

 

[blackbuick87]

The only the stock turbo can cause problems is when it is repeatedly pushed above 23psi again and again. Above 23psi the stocker is way passed the range it was designed to operate at, and it becomes so inefficient it can cause significant knock retard by superheating the intake charge. Eventually this will take its toll on the valves, bearings, pistons, etc.

 

[turbo buicks]

tom, get the alky. i installed mine at Bobs and had him do a 20* chip for it and at only 21# of boost it hauls. shooting for 23-25 psi with a HD actuator. keep away the knock and the HG will be fine. also my ta-49 flows 800+ cfm and a stocker is maxed at 550 cfm so at the same boost pressure the 49/44 will be flowing more air than a stocker and be heating the air les due to better efficiency so it will be faster. with a FM added in you got the mods for 11s with a good launch and good tires. the only thing i think MAY be lacking would be the injectors but they may work into the 11s, who knows.

 

[Buick Beginner]

Hey Cory,

Thanks for the info. I feel like I'm on a 5 year mission to explore strange turbo phenomenon. My mind is a sponge seeking knowledge, I feel like a young Jedi! Oh well, guess I got carried away. - BB

 

[OneLethal87GN]

I run less than 20 psi with my combo. Before the alky kit I could only get between 9-11 psi before getting as much as 8-9 degrees of knock. This is with an old Kenne-Bell hot flash chip. I believe it has about 30 degrees of timing in it. After installing the alky kit I have gone as high as 18 psi with no other changes and no knock. To me this is a great improvement. My combo is in my sig. and this is with straight 93 octane and a stock longblock. Now if i could only get some ported heads and an intake.