New Turbo and Injector problems. HELP!

[CutterTurboT]

I just bought a TA54 and 42.5 lbs injectors. I installed the turbo first and the car ran great, real strong. About a week later I put the injectors on and had my chips (93, and 108 Red Armstrong, Red sent back a 107 instead of the 108) reprogramed for the injectors and turbo. Well, when I installed the injectors and new chips it ran like crap, Slower than my stock set up! It would take for ever to spool up. my EGT is perfect at 1550 deg and hardly any knock at 22 psi of boost. Fuel preasure is at about 42 psi. So I changed my MAF and it seemed to help the spool up problem and seemed to run good..I could get about 3-4 psi on launch. So I took it to the track tonight....well with stock turbo and injectors I could run 8.00@85-86 mph all day in the 1/8 with an average 1.80 60ft. Well the best I got tonight was a 8.61@85 with a 2.17 60ft! It would take it forever to get going....and no will spin! it was laging like crazy...I know I need to get a stall...but still I should be way faster! My MPH stayed the same as the stock turbo and injectors!! All my readings were pefect just like above...I'm good and mad...Spend $1,000 and run worse than I did with my stock stuff! Please help! Do you think my chips are programed wrong or I got a batch of bad injectors?

 

[Intercooler]

A convertor would help but I recently saw a LT-70 with a stock D-5 go 11.0@125 MPH. You are probably super fat down low. 22 PSI? Something weird going on!

 

[Slo86GN]

I shoulda asked you this before I left the track, but what shape is the O2 sensor in? I think that's part of the prob I was having with the 87.....That and I need to adjust my w/g rod to compensate for the new Mease d/p... Didn't think about that til I was on the road headed home. Oh yeah, best run tonight was a 7.81 @ 89.59 with RA93, 16-17# boost, and a splash of 114 octane.
Sounds like either an O2 or maybe a bad set-up on the chip....maybe a combo of both. How does the car run with the 93 chip? Let me know if you need to borrow the RA108 I have for the 86 to check if it is the chip.

 

[TurboDave]

You've mad two very radical changes to the air, fuel equation. New Turbo, and new injectors (which BTW you're going to find out in short order are WAY TOO SMALL for that turbo )

It's all a matter of tuning. As most of us usually find out, it's not as simple as strapping on parts and throwing money at it that makes it go faster/quicker. You HAVE TO TUNE. If you're not prepared to spend time, and be patient, then you're really going to be in for a lot of dissapointments.

That turbo (54) is going to need a good honest 3400 converter to get it spooled and get your 60's back down.
That should be your first priority!
Next, you need to think about selling those injectors and going up to 50's. Or even bigger if you don't mind "modding" the ECM for low impedence injectors.
The 50's should be a good match though unless you're looking at running 10.90's or quicker.

 

[Rick]

http://secure.johnsperformance.com/...mG8X52005412.23529*na6Ri&product=Fuel-Systems

42 Lb Fuel Injectors 0116
84-89 3.8 Turbo Buick. AKA 009's. Good for low 11's to high 10 second 520 HP car's. Recommend TA-49 to TE-54 Turbocharger.

Conflicting info. It's hard to know what to do anymore.

 

[CutterTurboT]

Thanks for the replys....My o2 sensor is pretty new. I talked to Harry at Precision
when I ordered the turbo and injectors and he said that the 42.5 inj. would do great with the TA54...it even recomends them on his web site. " 42.5 inj Recommended Turbocharger at this power level: TA49-PTE54 " I have a friend that was running 8.20@84 in the 1/8 changed to the TA53 and 42.5 inj. with stock converter and intercooler and ran a 7.70@91 so I know it can be done on stock stall...that is why I should be way faster. And on the tunning question all my reading are just about perfect as a stated in my first post. I'm probably gonna change back to my stock injectors and chip and see if it runs strong like it did before I changed them.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Rick
Conflicting info. It's hard to kno...ERIOUS tune package that I can run if I want.

 

[ALBERTAN]

Ummm...I dunno what website you are looking at but here is what I read last time I went through their site trying to decide between a 52 and a 54.

The TA54 turbocharger is the last of our 50 series turbos. It will support 615 horsepower, and retains the stock appearing removable inlet bell. 3000 stall is required and injectors from 63 to 72lb/hr are recommended

I'd agree with Dave. That's nowhere near enough injector for that turbo. And then there's your convertor...

Good luck sorting it and please keep us informed of your progress.

 

[Rick]

That is the whole point of my post

Conflicting info. It's hard to know what to do anymore.

I agree about getting bigger injectors but when I read vendor ads that show those injectors are just fine then he's told to get rid of them they aren't big enough I think "Conflicting info"

Ummm...I dunno what website you are looking at

If you are talking to me.......read the post. I can't get any more descript than a link and a quote.

 

[d0n_3d]

it may say up to a 54 turbo but that is honestly pushing the extreme spraying limits on those injectors...i would think you would have to run a really high fuel pressure in order to make those injectors keep up with that kind of turbo...plus a stall converter would really help that lag

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by Rick
http://secure.johnsperformance.com/...mG8X52005412.23529*na6Ri&product=Fuel-Systems

42 Lb Fuel Injectors 0116
84-89 3.8 Turbo Buick. AKA 009's. Good for low 11's to high 10 second 520 HP car's. Recommend TA-49 to TE-54 Turbocharger.

Conflicting info. It's hard to know what to do anymore.

Ya well, vendors can say anything they want, and speculate as needed.

Me, I prefer actual experience to reading.
I can tell you that on a bone stock (internally) 3.8 with only a TE44, front mount I/C, that I totally used up a set of 40# injectors just getting to 11.90. There's no way a set of 42-42.5's is going "SAFELY" get you any where near 11.00's to 10.90.

My MSD 50's in the trim level I'm at now are running at 85% duty cycle to get me to the 11.60's (A very safe, and BTW ideal duty cycle). Still internally stock engine. Same PTE44, fronto mount, and running 25# of boost.

Sorry, but the info they've got on that web site is horribly misleading (IMHO).

I have my own reasons as to why any vendors would make such claims, but I damn sure aint going to air them in public.

 

[CutterTurboT]

Look at this link http://www.precisionte.com/buicks/injchips.htm
look at the 009's and it says Recommended Turbocharger at this power level: TA49-PTE54. that is where I found my info plus the owner of precision Harry is who I talked to and he said that is a good combo. I have seen a TR go 10.90's with that turbo and inj. with a good 3000 stall. Plus the TA54 turbo ran stronger with my stock inj. at 22 psi with no retard and @1550 egt. I understand different views on this site but it seems a lot of people go overboard with to much stuff and not running that well. I have many friends that run low 11's with just a stall, front mount intercooler, 42.5 injectors, and 50 and 60 series turbo. with stock motors. so I know it can be done.

 

[Slo86GN]

Well, before you start taking it apart, try sticking your 93 chip back in and see how the car runs. If it runs better, keep an eye on your O2s at WOT and see what happens. I agree with these guys on one point...that your injs may be too small once you start pushing the envelope. My 50's are at the limit now, so it's time to step up. Let me know the next time you head to Douglas...we'll hook Direct Scan to the car and see what your injector duty cycle looks like. Something is messed up in the works somewhere, but it can be found and fixed.

 

[ITSAV6]

tinker/tweak/tune

Cutter, you need to come back to the track and let Lonnie hook the old lap top up and scan your car and see whats up. The readings off the O2 sensor can be off some. You might still be fat down low even though your EGT is dead on,if chip has a lot of timing your EGT will be high.
When Anthony ran the 54 w/stk stall his reaction time was 2.4 to build 5-6# boost(told you 60ft!) Check your private messages!

 

[Lee_Burough]

I don't pretend to know all this stuff, but found some good reading at:

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turbopage.html

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/pictureguides/turboguide/turbos.html

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboupdate.html

Advice on these pages agrees with the advice posted here today. I think ists reliable.

 

[Two Lane]

Cutter,

Have you checked/changed your fuel pressure since the changes?

Just a thought, using the "K.I.S.S" principle.

HTH

 

[Mile Hi GN]

At this point this is a tuning issue, not a parts issue.

Originally posted by CutterTurboT
I just bought a TA54 and 42.5 lbs injectors. I installed the turbo first and the car ran great, real strong.

It ran real strong with the 54 and the stock injectors? How was the spool-up? You made these changes separately, let's look at the information.

Well, when I installed the injectors and new chips it ran like crap, Slower than my stock set up!

It ran good before, made a change and it runs like crap. It's the injectors or chip - that's all there is to it. If they are new injectors then it's likely the chip.

So I took it to the track tonight....well with stock turbo and injectors I could run 8.00@85-86 mph all day in the 1/8 with an average 1.80 60ft. Well the best I got tonight was a 8.61@85 with a 2.17 60ft!

Well....if you could run 8.00 @ 85 with the stock injectors you sure as crap aren't fuel limited at 8.61 @ 85 with the 42.5 lbs injectors. Those injectors should take you into the 7.50's or 7.60's - you've got plenty of injector until the ET's start making sense. At this point - you sure don't need bigger injectors

The car should spool-up at least as good as it did with the previous injectors. If it spooled slowly with the old injectors then it is time for a converter.

Don't spend another dime on different injectors or converter until it spools as it did before and the ET's start making sense.

Start with the chip, check for vacuum leaks and Tune, Tune, Tune

 

[CutterTurboT]

Mile Hi GN, Thank you for understanding that I don't need bigger injectors. Your the first one that really understood my questions. My spool up was great with the stock inj./chip and the TA54. Only after I changed the injectors and chip It started running like crap.

Well....if you could run 8.00 @ 85 with the stock injectors you sure as crap aren't fuel limited at 8.61 @ 85 with the 42.5 lbs injectors. Those injectors should take you into the 7.50's or 7.60's - you've got plenty of injector until the ET's start making sense. At this point - you sure don't need bigger injectors

I agree 100% with your statement! I'll look for vacuum leaks. Thanks