Questions on Alky

[lost2a6]

Ok I'm really looking seriously into this alky thing. Is any one running alky in the 10.70s range 125+ MPH with 24-25 psi of boost on pump gas? One of the reasons why I want to run alky is I have too much turbo and not enough waste gate therefore not being able to run boost at 17 lbs the lowest that it would go with the stock MAF was 18-18.5 psi, and it had a fair amount of knock. I have since installed the LS1 sensor and now my boost is around 20 psi, but ironically it doesn't have as much knock. I guess that the bigger sensor is giving it a cooler air charge. I personally don't see that the alky would care if it were on a 12 sec ride or a 10 sec ride. I would think that it would work as good or better on a car that has aluminum heads and a big turbo as apposed to a car that had stock heads small turbo etc. I have pretty much made up my mind to run straight alky so this brings my next question. What kind of alky? Denatured or methanol and will the sureflo pump handle this? I'm thinking of the progressive controller because I can see where a problem might arise in the event that say you have a 10 psi Hobbs switch and you need to get into it a little and the boost reaches 10 psi but you're not WOT and the alky hits it and as a result it falls on it's face. I'm going to try to come up with a way so that in the event that the alky didn't come on the the boost would not go over the base settingof 20 psi.
Thanks Steve

 

[Red Regal T]

Steve........the Shurflo pump is the most reliable pump out there. You won't have to worry about it not spraying. Mine hasn't missed a beat in over 3 1/2 years. Also, capable of drowning out your spark as far as pumps go. Check with razor and his progressive pump controller. Sprays more as boost goes up.

 

[Razor]

Your on the rite track.. only question on your application will be volume..and at what PSI. If a pump were to handle it..the shureflow will most definetely fit the bill. Alky of choice..Methanol.

To answer you 10 second question..not that i'm aware of "yet". On postings to this particular section. There was a 10.9 run someone posted a month ago or so..

Drop me an email or call..see if what I have may/may not be rite for you..I may have something to limit the boost as well.

Julio
727-526-9724
email idoxlr8_70@yahoo.com

 

[idaho gn]

10.70 on alcky

dennis hogan's stock block car ran close to this # at turbo thunder in 110 degree heat


shawn

 

[Razor]

I would love to hear more about cars just like that and the way they are applying the alky. What electronics, what timing..electronics..combo's etc..

We just dont get postings..from guys like him on this section..hence why I responded the way I did. I wouldnt doubt it at all. Hell i'm in the mid 11's on a stocker..cant imagine less than a second away is all that..(I know its a really big second).

There are some wicked GN's in my area..a lot of them dont get involved with the internet.

Shame..

 

[Matt]

Re: 10.70 on alcky

Originally posted by idaho gn
dennis hogan's stock block car ran close to this # at turbo thunder in 110 degree heat


shawn

geno posted about when he broke 10s.

I didn't know that guy had gone faster.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17878

 

[SMC]

SMC Controller + DIY?

Red Regal-
Since you're pushing Razor's controller now it's only fair to let people know that the SMC controller (standard or progressive) can easily be added to a DIY setup and will run the Shurflo pump easily and have all the added features. Just remember the Shurflo is not rated for flammable mixtures- better dilute your alky with water. I did some testing tonite on a Shurflo and was not impressed with the wild pulsations of pressure.....I killed 2 pressure guages trying to get a reading- the needles bounced so badly it broke them. And although a Shurflo will run higher pressure, the SMC pump spools up faster & will put out 80 psi with 2 #15 nozzles, 100 psi with 1 #15.......if that isn't enough spray the car has other problems!
We have not yet had a failure on the HD pumps.

 

[lost2a6]

Thanks for the responses guys. Razor, I'll give you a call.
Steve

 

[Razor]

Re: SMC Controller + DIY?

Originally posted by SMC
Red Regal-
Since you're pushing Razor's controller now it's only fair to let people know that the SMC controller (standard or progressive) can easily be added to a DIY setup and will run the Shurflo pump easily and have all the added features. Just remember the Shurflo is not rated for flammable mixtures- better dilute your alky with water. I did some testing tonite on a Shurflo and was not impressed with the wild pulsations of pressure.....I killed 2 pressure guages trying to get a reading- the needles bounced so badly it broke them. And although a Shurflo will run higher pressure, the SMC pump spools up faster & will put out 80 psi with 2 #15 nozzles, 100 psi with 1 #15.......if that isn't enough spray the car has other problems!
We have not yet had a failure on the HD pumps.

Glad to see you experimenting, my shureflow pump doesnt pulse..it puts out a nice mist. Problem is the top pressure regulator, you have to crank that down a few turns to up the pressure..if not when you hit the pressure switch it bounces off and shuts the pump on/off.. That pump on dual 10's will output over 150 PSI at 12 volts and draw way over 12 amps..so better have a power supply and driver to handle that. 6volts on an m10 was like 65 PSI.

Dunno bout the faster spoolup, I havent timed how fast individually the pumps raise pressure. Maybe you can post a data sheet on it and we can all compare.

Bring the voltage up without hitting its rev limiter..you'd be surprised what it can do.

Cheers

 

[SMC]

pulsing shurflo

Razor-
First thing I did was to crank down the bypass set screw, so it wasn't a problem of the pump turning on-off-on-off.....it's just the nature of a diaphraghm style pump. Now I can't say it would make a whit of difference in performance, maybe it doesn't. You need a direct reading style guage to see the pulsation.....many guages are "buffered" to smooth out readings. All in all I'm sure it's a fine pump. In fact I'm using it in "water only" applications for the Ford blower crowd. All things considered the DIY setup with your progressive Shurflo controller will most likely perform the same as an SMC setup- minus a few bells & whistles. But when you add the cost of one of your controllers to the DIY setup aren't they pretty close in price?

I'm just glad there are so many happy alcohol injection folks out there, no matter what type of system they have. It's all good! Wish you the best on your new venture!

 

[SMC]

HP gains from progressive controller?

Stevemon:
I agree with you- most TR users won't see a big HP increase from adding a progressive controller....but that's not what it's designed for. The problem lies in an alky system tuned for WOT operation that is activated at part throttle boost, say like merging onto the freeway. Many of us won't go WOT in this situation, but will approach 10-12 psi which will trigger the alky. A WOT spray at part throttle can induce a bog, especially with a water/alky mix. The progressive setup will eliminate this bog and make the alky system turnon invisible. It also will save some alky. The TR's run enough boost that it isn't a big problem- but it is there. The progressive really shines on a low boost supercharged application or a 4 cylinder turbo car. I really designed it for the riceburner crowd- you know how they like to pay for hi-tech gadgets!

 

[SMC]

bog phenomonem

Stevemon:
I'll assume you are using a 15 g.p.h. nozzle in a single stage system. (.031 orifice) At 100 psi pressure at say 11 pounds boost this should definitely bog the car- not so much if you are spraying straight alky, but say a 50/50 alky/water mix will bog-I'll bet money on it! It might not sputter or fall on it's face, but the power will definitely drop off from spray overload.

Besides- Is it not correct to spray more alky for higher boost? A basic non progressive system is actually backwards and will spray LESS alky as boost increases since you need to subtract boost pressure from spray pressure.

100 psi spray minus 20 psi boost = 80 psi spray pressure
100 psi spray minus 10 psi boost= 90 psi spray pressure

So a car tuned with alky for WOT will definitely get too much spray at part throttle- it's just more noticable on some cars than on others. And the modification level of the car will also affect how easily it'll bog. A stocker flowing less air will bog alot easier than a car with a turbo,DP & IC upgrade.

 

[SMC]

SMC Reply

Stevemon-
Hell I agree with most of what you say!
I personally don't have a "bog" problem-with or without the progressive feature. I think those that do probably have cars closer to stock or a mild tune on them. I am the first to admit that the progressive controller isn't really necessary on a TR.

I can see why you're not bogging- at 60 psi pump pressure minus 21 psi boost you only have 39 psi spray pressure.....that's not alot of spray. And with the NOS nozzle the spray pattern can't be real good. An SMC kit with a larger (.031") nozzle will put out as much as 100 psi- less 21# boost would be 79 psi spray pressure- almost double the spray. Maybe that's why some people get a bog, too much spray.

As for the track- I'd rather run pump gas & alky all the time even if I lose a tenth or 2 from race gas times. Drive in, change tires and GO! And I've yet to see a faster pass on alky with the same mods I had at the time.

Stock cam, heads, converter (unopened except for valve springs)
TE44, Blue Tops, TH DP, Precision FM IC, K&N, ET Streets. exhaust.
11.66 @115 1.65 60 foot. Any DIY's with similar mods with better times???

 

[Razor]

7.55 at 93.3 with a 1.80 60 foot 1/8 mile..stock intercooler, drag radials, stock TB, stock cam, stock heads with LT1 springs, stock suspension, PT51, 50's, progressive controller..June 03

Runs 7.70's same 60 foot with the thrasher 92 chip at 91 MPH.

New 1/4 mile times soon.. better air 11.30's are mine. Slicks will get me there..And get kicked out of the track

With heads and cam..should bust into the 10's... maybe come winter..

Pressure will bog the motor, toooooo much pressure at turnon cuases BOG. Too little pressure up top when running a lot of power..cuases retard... If you run a kit with non agressive boost and a mild turnon point of 12 PSI, you dont experience any bog. So Steve M I know exactly what your saying. But trying to run 125 PSI through the shureflow on a stock motor when it hits 12 PSI for turnon..black smoke city, rich knock, etc. 60 PSI on a motor at 21 PSI.. no problemo and takes the edge rite off the knock which is a wonderful thing.

The progressive controller is not needed for a mild application. A bazillion GN's running hobbs with relays and getting it done effectiveley. Me I'm suppose to promote my product, but cant justify a benefit on a stock GN running 20-21 PSI boost. Unless bells and whistles are wanted.

Wanna run 25 PSI on a stocker or alky on a high flow modded motor... then we're talking. Small market..thats ok..

I wont get rich, but provide a really cool product for a small group of gearheads.

Peace

Julio

 

[RobR]

Here's mine:
Same setup as Julio's except I'm running a 210/205 cam and single nozzle SMC kit. I got the times in my sig with a Thrasher 92. If it wasn't so pig rich on the launch, I know there's a .5 second more in it. But not being able to spool all of maybe 3psi just doesn't get it.

 

[SMC]

ET's on alky

Things are gonna heat up!
I sold the old test mule (T-Top GN) car that ran the 11.66.......
Now I have a fresh creampuff GN hardtop to play with! Stock down to the air cleaner! (But not for long)

Coming very soon:
Mease Stretch IC
TH DP
Precision 52 Turbo
50# injectors
3" single shot exhaust
Progressive Alky in place now

Woo-Hoo!
Should be good for low 11's with traction.

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by TTA 1387
If it wasn't so pig rich on the launch

Hummm... where have heard this before

Rob, when ya get settled in..hollar

 

[SMC]

SMC Reply

Razor-
I know that pig rich thing wasn't a shot to the SMC kit....we all know the Thrasher chips run rich. A properly tuned system of any type has no reason to be "pig rich" on the launch.

Stevemon-

I surely didn't mean to dis the DIY setup- you know me better. But it's a fact that more pressure combined with a smaller nozzle will produce a much finer spray droplet.
Why not use maximum pressure and a smaller nozzle to get the best spray pattern? A smaller McMaster nozzle has a full cone spray pattern that puts out a serious FOG of spray- you might like it better than the NOS nozzle.

I feel either the DIY or SMC setups can produce similar gains. To each his own. But we may learn something from each others experiences, that's why the forum is great.

 

[RobR]

Re: SMC Reply

Originally posted by SMC

I know that pig rich thing wasn't a shot to the SMC kit....we all know the Thrasher chips run rich. A properly tuned system of any type has no reason to be "pig rich" on the launch.

This is true, no knock on your SMC kit. The Thrasher problem is they really didn't make a 50# chip. So I'm launching with 900mv O2 Hence the no boost launch situation.

I'll be heading toward a Trans+ and LT1 MAF fairly soon and hopefully will get down those ET's.

 

[Razor]

Re: SMC Reply

Originally posted by SMC
Razor-
I know that pig rich thing wasn't a shot to the SMC kit....we all know the Thrasher chips run rich. A properly tuned system of any type has no reason to be "pig rich" on the launch.

No the pig rich isnt an SMC thing, its a too much alky too low thing. easy..

Wanna bet?

Same chip same everything just a different controller, bam they dropped 40-50 points. You know how many runs I had that my .O2's were in the lower 900's.. a bazillion... on direct scan, not scanmaster. Granted the thrasher is not the best chip, but for reliable performance messing with different stuff, its very forgiving and an excellent guinea pig.

Try make a car fast with 900's for o2's..wont happen till it goes past the 330 ft mark

Rob I have recent runs with the thrasher that start at 860's down to 780's. use to be 920's down to 770's.

Boy could I use a nice saturday at the track to do some tuning