Shift Points to Low on New Tranny. Why?

[Tim Cucci]

Finally got my car back for the 3rd time from the tranny shop after rebuilds. 1-2 shiftpoints were extremely late before the last trip in the shop. I ordered new gov. and had them install in the last adventure with them. They also put in a shft kit and super servo and alto wide band in the last trip. The tranny shifts extremely hard now and shifts from 1-2 at 4300 rpm.Speedo is wrong.
I pulled the gov. out and they did not swap the green gear with my orange orig, GN gear "I told them to swap it and they had direction to swap it". I swapped the gears and corrected the speedo problem.
I have verified that I have the correct gov. and brf valve body. What can I do to get the 1-2 shift points back up around 5200-5300 rpm?
I am not taking it back to the tranny shop!! I'll do it myself!!
I don't mind the firm upshifts but really don't like the downshift clunk that I assume is caused by the super servo. I think I want to also swap it back out with either the th200 or stock GN servo. Will this correct the downshift clunk?
I also have a brand new seperator plate if I need to use it to correct any of this mess.
Thanks
Tim

 

[zam70]

The harder the upshift the harder the down shift. It's hard to have one without the other.
There's no advantage to a "hard" shift other than the fun factor. the draw back is it's hard on parts.

Your down shift clunk is probably your u-joints.
To soften up the shifts, pull the servo and see how many spacers are on the shaft or where it is adjusted...not an expert here, just trying to pry some info from my rusty memory.

 

[2quiktocare]

The quicker the shift the less wear you have on clutches and bands. Yes it is hard on stock parts. That is precisely why when you do these mods, you need to have the best quality of hard parts in the trans also. The main reason you go for quick shifts is less flair in between shifts thus better utilization of the power your engine is producing. Anytime you make these mods you are trying to enhance you et's. The hard shifts are a by product of that action. As far as the clunk, most cases you are noticing back lash in the differential and the rear suspension. These mods are the things the guys on the strip use and on the street you are in a whole new hood with them. You will notice things like this. I wonder just how much of this harshness you are experiencing is due to the rebuild rather than the servo (who ever it is from) or actually due to the mis match of components your builder put in. Good luck Tim, I hope you get it sorted out soon. It's a headache I'm sure. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Mark

 

[chris718]

hey tim,i hate to say it but i told you so.i know my kit and servo will correct that problem just search some old posts.nothing is more annoying for most of us than a brutal 1/2 2/3 4/3 3/2 2/1 3/1.later shifts can be had by adjusting the cable tighter ,but your problem is only going to get worse.

 

[zam70]

Fast doesn't necessarily mean hard IMO. There is a point that the shift becomes hard for no additional gain.
Admittedly, I'm no expert but, my tranny guy has my trans set up to shift extremely quick but not what I would consider hard.
just my .02...I could be way off base.

 

[chris718]

the faster the shift happens results in the less heat that is generated during a ratio change and this increases friction life .i like to not even feel the shift only hear the engine drop rpm on a gear change.this is efficiency and proper calibration in my world of automatic transmissions.it takes energy to bark tires and spin tires on gear changes and this takes away from the cars ability to accellerate.leave the skid marks in your draws ,just my humble opinion.

 

[zam70]

Originally posted by chris718
the faster the shift happens results in the less heat that is generated during a ratio change and this increases friction life .i like to not even feel the shift only hear the engine drop rpm on a gear change.this is efficiency and proper calibration in my world of automatic transmissions.it takes energy to bark tires and spin tires on gear changes and this takes away from the cars ability to accellerate.leave the skid marks in your draws ,just my humble opinion.

EXACTLY what I thought....maybe I'm not so far off...

 

[2quiktocare]

Well, you can't have quick shifts without feeling it. You may have quicker than factory, but you don't have what many would consider quick shifts. My world revolves around boosted cars here and the need to stay on top of it means getting the next gear NOW, not when its thru slipping into gear. Barking tires shows you have had energy tranfer. I would rather have to contend with lost energy at the rear wheels than inside my trans. More efficient tranfer I might add. Anytime you cushion shifts, you are loosing energy just in the band and disc slipage. That slipage translates into heat (now that is lost energy) and helps shorten the life of your trans. It comes down to personal choice really, many like crisp shifts, and some don't. So it is back to that personal choice thing, not what is right or wrong. The question though, with all the trouble you had with the build of the trans, has it come down to blaming all this on a servo? Or have I missed something? Seems as though there were other issues also.

 

[chris718]

you are not truly in comprehension of my point without driving a car with one of our transmissions.the trans does not slip and changes gears so fast there is no slip only thing is the engine rpm drops.im sure you are familiar with boosted cars otherwise you wouldnt be part of the soup here at turbo buick .com.the point im trying to make is that a gear change made without banging ,bumping and rattling the car can be done efficiently by those who choose this method of calibration.and most people prefer this especially after using other methods and techniques pioneered by others .too firm breaks tires loose and slows the car down on the track and the street and eventually damages the transmission ,driveshaft and differential on cars with factory parts.this generates the need for more expensive parts and generates new complaints.i dont believe i ever mentioned the word cushion so re evaluate your thought process to understand what i am trying to bring forth.EXCESSIVE TIRE SPINNING DURING GEAR CHANGES WILL CAUSE THE DRIVER TO LOSE CONTROL OF THE VEHICLE ON THE TRACK RESULTING IN PERSONAL INJURY OR DEATH TO THE DRIVER .i hope this doesnt come off the wrong way im just trying to let you see that there are other ways to accomplish perfection besides those you may already be familiar with ,BREGGETTA SHY FROM INDIANAPOLIS IS THIS YOU?

 

[2quiktocare]

I perfectly well understand all your points, but do understand beyond them also. As I said, its personal choice. An inescapable fact is, that if there is any "cushion" to a shift, it's due to slipage into the next gear, period. No way to get around that. Calbration or what ever you choose to call it, it's slipage. And as I said, that is fine, if that is what you are after. In that case, leave it stock, but please, can't I be free to issue my desire to feel a positive shift? I am not talking brutal, but crisp. There again, we are talking about perceptions. If I were after seemless shifts, I would go for a CVT, then it would all be solved. lol. Just remember, I prefer tight shifts, not for everyone, but then again, I am seeing hard shifting cars driven brutally for over 100k miles and still no problems with anything in the drive line. Personally, I would opt for the dependability of my $3,500 trans over a $20 u joint any day. Just my opinion, no need to change it. You can live with yours, and I will hang with mine. As far as loosing control of your car, if you can't handle a car that has the power to break the tires loose, you shouldn't be in a GN to start with.

 

[chris718]

ONCE AGAIN YOUR PERSONAL PREFERENCE ARGUMENT IS CLOUDING YOUR ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND MY POST.A SHIFT THAT TAKES A TENTH OF A SECOND FROM START TO FINISH WITHOUT BANGING THE GUTS OF THE TRANS OR DRIVELINE IS MORE EFFICIENT THAN A TIRE CHIRPER WITH HIGH HORSEPOWER .THIS CERTAINLY IS NOT SLIPPAGE .AND LOOK HERE ,I DONT THINK YOU KNOW WHAT AN 8 SECOND RUN IS SO HAVE SOME RESPECT FOR A MAN WHOS BEEN THERE AND KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS ON A GEAR CHANGE WITH 1 HAND ON THE WHEEL AND ONE ON THE SHIFTER WITH INCORRECT CALIBRATION.AND IF YOU HAVE PAYED ATTENTION IN THE PAST TO OTHER POSTS MANY PEOPLE HERE HAD PROBLEMS THAT WERE DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE SERVO,AND LATER POSTED THIS AS THE SOURCE OF NUMEROUS ILL SIDE EFFECTS IN CALIBRATION.THEY WERE NOT HAPPY WITH THE UP AND DOWNSHIFT QUALITY OF THE TRANSMISSION WITH ACCUMULATOR / CUSHION SPRINGS REMOVED FROM THE SERVO.A LOT MORE THAN THOSE WHO LIKED PARTS DISTORTING SHIFTS.LETS TRY TO STICK WITH THE TOPIC HERE INSTEAD OF DRIVING UP THE STREET IN THE WRONG DIRECTION MARK.

 

[zam70]

You know, I have ridden in a car with the top of the line PTS trans and I wouldn't consider it a neck snapper (neck snap = bad to me) I would consider it solid ... Maybe you guys are discussing the same type of shift with differing perception...I'm sure neither of you build trannys that "slip" when they shift.
JMO

 

[chris718]

I AM DEFINATELY NOT REFERRING TO PTS HERE,IM REFERRING TO THE SHOP WHO DID TIM CUCCI INJUSTICE AND DONT WANT TO MAKE THE TRANS RIGHT.THAT IS WHAT THIS POST IS ABOUT.THANKS.

 

[2quiktocare]

I agree zam, as I was saying, without yelling, it's all a matter of personal opinion, choice , and perception. I don't know when this became a personal thing, but as I have said many times before, there is more than one way to skin a cat and get the same results. Shouldn't there be room for more than one school of thought? Some do it one way, some another way. But the main thing is both sides get what they want. It's not something to get riled about, or even excited. Its the individuals choice period. I respect your work Chris, you have obviously done you homework on transmissions. My point was as zam said, all a matter of perceptions. Oh, BTW, I have been on an 8 second super bike, so I know the importance of keeping a rear wheel going in the right direction. Mark

 

[Tim Cucci]

I have had contact With PTS, Mark and Chris while going through this tranny thing and do really appreciate the help and knowledge and advice from both sources. I also try to spread my expenses around also and have done so. Both sources have been more than helpful to me. All I can say is that I wish I had gone to these guys in the beginning to do the rebuild or buy another tranny but I wanted to have it done local so that I could resolve any problems easily. Well so much for that DUMBA$$ decision, I screwed up and that is just tough SH$$,money down the drain and my BAD.
But now that I have the car back again it is much better than the previous two times. Don't know how long it will hold up. Leaving a copy of "Strengthening The 200R4" in plain sight on the front seat and requesting an Alto Wide band may have helped these clowns. They did keep the copies. I think they followed the article because as I talked to them they made reference to things that they did not have knowledge of previously.

Now the main problem I would like to correct is the 1-2 shift point being too low. Is this a problem I could simply correct? I like the tire barking upshift it just comes a little to soon at WOT and does the servo have control of the hard downshifts?
Thanks Guys just remember we are all here to help or be helped and want the best for our cars. There are more ways than one to do things and there are different ways that work on different cars.
Tim

 

[WE4]

Originally posted by Tim Cucci
I have had contact With PTS, Mark and Chris while going through this tranny thing and do really appreciate the help and knowledge and advice from both sources. I also try to spread my expenses around also and have done so. Both sources have been more than helpful to me. All I can say is that I wish I had gone to these guys in the beginning to do the rebuild or buy another tranny but I wanted to have it done local so that I could resolve any problems easily. Well so much for that DUMBA$$ decision, I screwed up and that is just tough SH$$,money down the drain and my BAD.
But now that I have the car back again it is much better than the previous two times. Don't know how long it will hold up. Leaving a copy of "Strengthening The 200R4" in plain sight on the front seat and requesting an Alto Wide band may have helped these clowns. They did keep the copies. I think they followed the article because as I talked to them they made reference to things that they did not have knowledge of previously.

Now the main problem I would like to correct is the 1-2 shift point being too low. Is this a problem I could simply correct? I like the tire barking upshift it just comes a little to soon at WOT and does the servo have control of the hard downshifts?
Thanks Guys just remember we are all here to help or be helped and want the best for our cars. There are more ways than one to do things and there are different ways that work on different cars.
Tim

I would like to thank Tim for his post. He explained all that happened to him and who assisted him in trying to resolve. I had to laugh at the "dumb assed decision" part. We have ALL been there at one time or another and the fact that you can laugh or criticize yourself, reminds me of me. Nobody can be harder on me than me. It appears you have the same philosify.
I am always willing to help as is the rest of the "techs" in this forum.
Just hollar if you need anything else.
Thanks again for the kudos......

Bruce
WE4

 

[WE4]

I agree

Originally posted by chris718
I AM DEFINATELY NOT REFERRING TO PTS HERE,IM REFERRING TO THE SHOP WHO DID TIM CUCCI INJUSTICE AND DONT WANT TO MAKE THE TRANS RIGHT.THAT IS WHAT THIS POST IS ABOUT.THANKS.

Damn right Chris!!!
Tim's dissatifaction is what we need to get rectified!!
Tim will get handled.

I did think it was great that Tim left "my bible" on the seat of his car. That was GREAT!!!., Maybe Tim can teach these guys something.
You go boy!! That was great!! If they have any questions, have them call either us or Chris and between the three of us we will get these guys who did Tim his injustice straightened out!!!!

Maybe they should have read "Strengthening the 2004r" BEFORE they broke into it!!! LOL.

Chris.... I am sorry. I screwed up and hit edit on your post by mistake. That is why it says edited by me. It was an honest mistake and I put all back. Sometimes I am soo freakin stupid!!!.
My fault.... Please accept my apology.... BT
BTW ... Chris? what is all the yellin about? No caps please....friendly discussion it is...LOL

 

[John Larkin]

Here's an odd question for the trans section: How much boost are you running? Believe it or not (and this has been discussed I think), higher boost and engine load WILL raise shift points alone. Not 1000 rpm but certainly 300-400rpm. Been there done that and saw it on Direct Scan.

The governor does controls WOT shift points. More than likely you are going to need to trim a few grams off the small weight side. This is a painstaking process though someone may know the optimal final weight that coorelates to a certain shift point already. Mine was trial and error. Be prepared to drop the pan several times sorting this out. I used an 1/8" drill bit and found 1 hole = 1 gram roughly. Make sure your TV cable is set properly first, ascertain your shift points and if they are still 4300rpm, my opinion would be to take 3 grams off and see what happens.